Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Hoax Investigation => June 25, 2009 => UCLA => Topic started by: Christiana on December 18, 2009, 12:41:07 AM
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Has anyone ever seen this article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686168 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686168)
Headline: Jackson's hospital known for 'raising the dead'
UCLA Medical Center surgeon pioneered novel method of reviving patients
The article is rather long, so I'm not going to post the whole thing. Here's just the first paragraph to give you the gyst of it.
When Michael Jackson went into cardiac arrest, rescuers took him to a place known for bringing the dead back to life. A world-renowned surgeon at the UCLA Medical Center has pioneered a way to revive people that most doctors would have long written off, including a woman whose heart had stopped for 2 1/2 hours.
I just find that rather interesting, to say the least! Your thoughts?
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Yep. Saw the article almost as soon as it was posted at the beginning of July, and it has influenced my perspective on June 25 ever since. It's a large part of the reason why I feel the way I do about the situation with Michael and why I'm so consistently confident that he isn't dead.
I'm surprised that more attention hasn't been paid to the article because it provides an excellent preliminary explanation for what could realistically be going on. Maybe not enough people have read it...
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yeah .. I have ever heard this .. it's very interesting .. :)
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"We have no idea when he died versus when he was found," Buckberg said in a telephone interview.
Isn't this unambiguously implying MJ was already dead BEFORE paramedics arrived? But you cannot say someone with a weak pulse is dead, and if i remember correctly that is the last official version - that his heart was beating but he failed breathing? And besides, again according to the information we have from media, there's Murray's testimony of when exactly he administered what and when he found MJ not breathing. So they should know the time...
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Yes, I remember reading this article. The comment tinker_bell cited is very interesting, as Dr. Buckberg does in fact sound like he is saying MJ was dead before he was brought in. I don't take that as good news if he knows anything about the case. If there was a chance they could have saved him why wasn't this doctor called in? Or do you guys actually think he was?
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Yes, I remember reading this article. The comment tinker_bell cited is very interesting, as Dr. Buckberg does in fact sound like he is saying MJ was dead before he was brought in. I don't take that as good news if he knows anything about the case.
Hm, i guess it is good news, because it shows more inconsistencies.
As it was already mentioned, MJ had a weak pulse. This Buckberg-statement sounds as if he was already dead though. But on the other hand they still tried to resuscitate him for more than an hour - why, if he was already dead for some time?
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You're right...so many inconsistencies. Who actually said he had a weak pulse though? Are we just going by Dr. Murray's statement? No doctor or paramedic has actually spoken as far as I know. Who knows what we should believe. The main reason I believe this is a hoax is that absolutely nothing makes sense!
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You're right...so many inconsistencies. Who actually said he had a weak pulse though? Are we just going by Dr. Murray's statement? No doctor or paramedic has actually spoken as far as I know. Who knows what we should believe. The main reason I believe this is a hoax is that absolutely nothing makes sense!
It was Doc Murray's statement that MJ had a weak pulse. And here are my issues with that whole thing.
1. For Murray to say that, if MJ is dead, it's a B.S. statement. If he's dead, Murray's only saying that as a way to prove his story and cover his A$$. He can't say he found him dead, because then he'd have to explain how that could have happened if he was truly out of the room for only a couple of minutes. It doesn't add up...leave the room to pee, and come back and MJ is dead? Nope. Doesn't compute.
2. If MJ truly had a weak pulse, why could they not bring him back? We know the doc couldn't do it since he clearly doesn't understand how to do CPR. But the paramedics were there quickly after 911 was called. Why couldn't they bring him back if he had a weak pulse? And if the hospital is known for "raising the dead" that question becomes even more puzzling.
3. Assume the statement about the weak pulse is just a lie...Murray's feeble attempt at a cover story...what about the efforts to revive "MJ?" The paramedics were there for what? Over 40 minutes or so? And then they worked on him at UCLA for another hour or more? Pardon me but, WTF?! We all read the rumors (granted, could be tabloid BS) that "MJ" was already dead when paramedics arrived. So if that's true, if there was no weak pulse or any other signs of life, why the belabored efforts to revive him? The first reports we heard about Murray was that he found MJ a little after 11am. 911 call happens after noon, and the paramedics arrived quickly after the call. If he looked dead to them then, why would they perform such life-saving efforts, especially for over 40 minutes before leaving for UCLA? And by the time they got to UCLA, wouldn't "MJ" look even more dead by that time (despite what the ambulance photo shows us)...a couple of hours after Murray supposedly found MJ in the first place?! Yet the docs at UCLA supposedly worked on him for another hour. And the doc in the article I mentioned didn't work on MJ--and we didn't hear about any of his techniques being used to try to save him either. WHY?
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I have ever heard somewhere that the doctors usually still attempt to revive the patient for several hour even though the patient was recently death .. :?
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I remember reading UCLA raises the dead back in June/July...
Ironic really, that Michaels body would go somewhere that can raise the dead, considering Thriller is full of zombies, thriller 2 = TII but this time 3D zombies, Moonwalker he comes back, the movie Ghosts he comes back from the dead, Resurrection album plans.. Yes, yes indeed.. very ironic that. :lol: ;)
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You're right...so many inconsistencies. Who actually said he had a weak pulse though? Are we just going by Dr. Murray's statement? No doctor or paramedic has actually spoken as far as I know. Who knows what we should believe. The main reason I believe this is a hoax is that absolutely nothing makes sense!
It was Doc Murray's statement that MJ had a weak pulse. And here are my issues with that whole thing.
1. For Murray to say that, if MJ is dead, it's a B.S. statement. If he's dead, Murray's only saying that as a way to prove his story and cover his A$$. He can't say he found him dead, because then he'd have to explain how that could have happened if he was truly out of the room for only a couple of minutes. It doesn't add up...leave the room to pee, and come back and MJ is dead? Nope. Doesn't compute.
2. If MJ truly had a weak pulse, why could they not bring him back? We know the doc couldn't do it since he clearly doesn't understand how to do CPR. But the paramedics were there quickly after 911 was called. Why couldn't they bring him back if he had a weak pulse? And if the hospital is known for "raising the dead" that question becomes even more puzzling.
3. Assume the statement about the weak statement is just a lie...Murray's feeble attempt at a cover story...what about the efforts to revive "MJ?" The paramedics were there for what? Over 40 minutes or so? And then they worked on him at UCLA for another hour or more? Pardon me but, WTF?! We all read the rumors (granted, could be tabloid BS) that "MJ" was already dead when paramedics arrived. So if that's true, if there was no weak pulse or any other signs of life, why the belabored efforts to revive him? The first reports we heard about Murray was that he found MJ a little after 11am. 911 call happens after noon, and the paramedics arrived quickly after the call. If he looked dead to them then, why would they perform such life-saving efforts, especially for over 40 minutes before leaving for UCLA? And by the time they got to UCLA, wouldn't "MJ" look even more dead by that time (despite what the ambulance photo shows us)...a couple of hours after Murray supposedly found MJ in the first place?! Yet the docs at UCLA supposedly worked on him for another hour. And the doc in the article I mentioned didn't work on MJ--and we didn't hear about any of his techniques being used to try to save him either. WHY?
Great questions...and it seems like there are no logical answers. I can't believe the general public isn't more suspicious about all these inconsistencies. It screams hoax or coverup, because something sure isn't right.
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do we know if this new technique works in case of drug overdose?
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If MJ had a weak pulse, like Murray said, he shouldn't have done chest compressions, only mouth to mouth (as far as I know?)
Also,if they had MJ in the ambulance and wanted the doctors at UCLA to revive him why drive so slow? And why waste time trying to revive him when the hospital isn't really far away? Why not leave immediately, while giving him oxygen? I'm not an expert so maybe there are logical explanations?
And the one that makes me sometimes think this is rather a cover up (AND I PRAY I'M WRONG) - why did Murray wait so long to call for help. I mean, what will we do? FIRST SHOUT OR RUN YOUR ASS OFF TO GET THE CALL MADE. At hospital they will be able to perform procedures that a doctor at home cant. Then you can continue to try it yourself. Even if you are a doctor and you manage to get him breathing again, I think your patient will still have to go to hospital?
Well, just some questions and opinions of mine..
What do you guys think?
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If MJ had a weak pulse, like Murray said, he shouldn't have done chest compressions, only mouth to mouth (as far as I know?)
Also,if they had MJ in the ambulance and wanted the doctors at UCLA to revive him why drive so slow? And why waste time trying to revive him when the hospital isn't really far away? Why not leave immediately, while giving him oxygen? I'm not an expert so maybe there are logical explanations?
And the one that makes me sometimes think this is rather a cover up (AND I PRAY I'M WRONG) - why did Murray wait so long to call for help. I mean, what will we do? FIRST SHOUT OR RUN YOUR ASS OFF TO GET THE CALL MADE. At hospital they will be able to perform procedures that a doctor at home cant. Then you can continue to try it yourself. Even if you are a doctor and you manage to get him breathing again, I think your patient will still have to go to hospital?
Well, just some questions and opinions of mine..
What do you guys think?
I hate to think it, but it's very possible that Murray was just covering his ass. You're right that if MJ had a pulse then Alberto saying the doctor was "pumping him" doesn't make sense. But since Murray's story is so ridiculous with the time frame of calls, and all the drugs he gave him, etc. why wasn't the LAPD called right away, and why didn't they search the house until two days later? I just hope we know the truth one day.
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Well, you know, and I'm just throwing this out there because I like to explore ALL possible explanations...it's very possible that if MJ is dead, then Murray's story is all lies. I mean, just say for the sake of argument here that MJ is dead. So Murray gives him the propofol (and likely more than then 25mg he says he did) and leaves the room...but instead of just leaving for a couple of minutes to relieve himself, he's actually gone for over 40 minutes, making his phone calls. He heads back to the room and finds MJ not breathing. That's when he panics...because he knows he was out of the room for too long, so he's gonna get the blame for this if he can't bring MJ back. Perhaps he tries CPR or something for a minute or so...but he doesn't want to call 911 because he'd have to tell them what happened and he doesn't want to do that (or he wants time to concoct his story). So he runs downstairs to yell for Security. When Alberto (and whomever else) gets there, Murray has him call 911 while he just continues CPR on MJ. And we know the rest according to the 911 call. This would is plausible, IF MJ is dead. But it does still beg the question: why would Murray be doing CPR on a bed? That makes him seem like a complete idiot. Can a doctor, a Cardiologist no less, really not understand how to do CPR? And as someone else pointed out, if he had a faint pulse (though that could be a lie too), would the chest compressions even be necessary?
Whether MJ is alive or dead, the account of what happened that day does NOT make sense. Either way, there has to be a lot more to this story than we know.
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You brought up a good point. Murray is lying either way. It is very suspicious he would perform CPR on a bed...so does that mean if MJ is really dead that Murray didn't even bother to properly resuscitate him? To me, that would mean two things: that either he meant for him to die, which is a horrible thought...or MJ was too far gone when he came back in the room so he didn't even bother, except of course for show when security arrived. He probably assumed that a bodyguard wouldn't pick up on the incorrect way he was doing CPR, but didn't realize he'd be outed to the 911 operator. So if it's not a hoax, then Murray should either be charged for murder, or seriously gross negligence, ie. manslaughter...and yet he's still able to practice. :roll:
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Well, you know, and I'm just throwing this out there because I like to explore ALL possible explanations...it's very possible that if MJ is dead, then Murray's story is all lies. I mean, just say for the sake of argument here that MJ is dead. So Murray gives him the propofol (and likely more than then 25mg he says he did) and leaves the room...but instead of just leaving for a couple of minutes to relieve himself, he's actually gone for over 40 minutes, making his phone calls. He heads back to the room and finds MJ not breathing. That's when he panics...because he knows he was out of the room for too long, so he's gonna get the blame for this if he can't bring MJ back. Perhaps he tries CPR or something for a minute or so...but he doesn't want to call 911 because he'd have to tell them what happened and he doesn't want to do that (or he wants time to concoct his story). So he runs downstairs to yell for Security. When Alberto (and whomever else) gets there, Murray has him call 911 while he just continues CPR on MJ. And we know the rest according to the 911 call. This would is plausible, IF MJ is dead. But it does still beg the question: why would Murray be doing CPR on a bed? That makes him seem like a complete idiot. Can a doctor, a Cardiologist no less, really not understand how to do CPR? And as someone else pointed out, if he had a faint pulse (though that could be a lie too), would the chest compressions even be necessary?
Whether MJ is alive or dead, the account of what happened that day does NOT make sense. Either way, there has to be a lot more to this story than we know.
You are approaching very rationally - thank you. I am remembering Annieisnotokey here and her theories about Doc Murray (old MJKIT forum).
I just wonder how we were able to hear in the uncut 911 take a women's voice saying "one more minute". How does this fit?
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What happened to Anniesnotokey...anyone know?
As far as the 911 call and the woman saying, "one more minute"...my assumption was that it was someone else with the operator telling him how much longer it would be until the ambulance arrived.
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What happened to Anniesnotokey...anyone know?
As far as the 911 call and the woman saying, "one more minute"...my assumption was that it was someone else with the operator telling him how much longer it would be until the ambulance arrived.
Yes, that seems like the logical explanation.. which I also presumed. But, I'm sure I read somewhere (I could be mistaken) that someone who studied the 911 call, said that couldn't be the case, because it was way longer than 1minute between her saying it and the ambulance arriving?? :? I could be remembering wrongly though.
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It is my opinion that Murray left the premises and came back and found Michael unconscious. He knew he was up shit's creek so starts the cover up. He is a liar and a bad one at that. Dang, can't he do ANYTHING correctly. The thought of him practicing medicine again floors me. I really can't comprehend him having any patients willing to risk it.
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Revived someone after 2 1/2 hours of no heart :o That's pretty scary!
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Yes it's definitely possible that Murray left him alone for way too long, and then tried to cover his butt...but then why did Michael look so good in the ambulance photo? And why wouldn't the paramedics take him straight to the coroners if he was clearly dead? And why would the hospital work on him for an hour? Why don't we have more answers after 6 months?!! :evil:
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All the above posters bring up very good questions and inconsistencies or stupidity on the doctors part or perhaps a cover up. That is the reason why I’m still here trying to find answers, but to be honest it seems as we hoax believers are the only one caring what exactly went on that day. The rest of the world is blind to the truth…
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do we know if this new technique works in case of drug overdose?
Yes, that was mentioned in the article.
It seems very odd indeed, that this method was not used on MJ, if necessary. Or was it?
To me that would be the only thing that could explain why doctors worked on him for sooo long. Anything else makes no sense.
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I posted this at the other forum; Can be an answer
Cardiac arrest
Therapeutic hypothermia is a medical treatment that lowers a patient's body temperature in order to help reduce the risk of the ischemic injury to tissue following a period of insufficient blood flow.
The data concerning hypothermia’s neuroprotectant qualities following cardiac arrest can be best summarized by two studies published in the New England Journal Medicine. The first of these studies conducted in Europe focused on people who were resuscitated 5–15 minutes after collapse. Patients participating in this study experienced spontaneous return of circulation (ROSC) after an median time of 22 minutes (normothermia group) and 21 minutes (hypothermia group). Hypothermia was initiated within 105 minutes after ROSC. Subjects were then cooled over a 24 hour period, with a target temperature of 32–34 °C (90–93 °F). 55% of the 137 patients in the hypothermia group experienced favorable outcomes, compared with only 39% in the group that received standard care following resuscitation.[2] Notably, complications between the two groups did not differ substantially. This data was supported by another similarly run study that took place simultaneously in Australia. In this study 49% of the patients treated with hypothermia following cardiac arrest experienced good outcomes, compared to only 26% of those who received standard care.[6]
One report suggests that fewer than 10% of the 300,000 Americans who suffer cardiac arrest each year survive "long enough to leave the hospital" despite increased use of such measures as "faster emergency squads, deployment of automated defibrillators at airports and other public places, and improvements in cardiopulmonary resuscitation techniques."[1] But of 140 patients since 2006 treated at the Minneapolis Heart Institute, 52% have survived by using therapeutic hypothermia.[1]
Research on induced hypothermia in patients who have had out-of-hospital cardiac arrest is just now being published in nursing journals
Please, read the Case Report
http://ccn.aacnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/5/36 (http://ccn.aacnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/5/36)
[youtube:ihtjyajn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u30XXJsguWc&feature=related[/youtube:ihtjyajn]
[youtube:ihtjyajn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoBKjo9MI4U&feature=related[/youtube:ihtjyajn]
[youtube:ihtjyajn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtf-MWvS3RM&feature=related[/youtube:ihtjyajn]
Patients participating in this study experienced spontaneous return of circulation (ROSC) after an median time of 22 minutes (normothermia group) and 21 minutes (hypothermia group). Hypothermia was initiated within 105 minutes after ROSC. Subjects were then cooled over a 24 hour period, with a target temperature of 32–34 °C (90–93 °F). 55% of the 137 patients in the hypothermia group experienced favorable outcomes, compared with only 39% in the group that received standard care following resuscitation.
I am of the opinion that Michael feared for his life. A murder conspiracy against him could have happened and fortunately, he was saved.