Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Latest News => The Redirects => TIAI => The Plan (Qanon, TIAI, BACK) => TIAI ~ 2011 => Topic started by: brunob12 on January 06, 2011, 09:35:38 PM
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http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-t ... -a-mystery (http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery)
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/08/26/0625_mj_getty_85154943_ex-1.jpg)
Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner cannot pinpoint the time of Michael Jackson's death ... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.
Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.
Sources say cops are suspicious of Dr. Murray's account. They say when Dr. Murray was interviewed by them two days after Jackson died -- his lawyer by his side -- the doctor's account seemed "scripted."
So when did Jackson really die? Rigor mortis typically doesn't set in for at least 3 hours, and often longer. If rigor mortis has not set in, the only way to approximate time of death is by body temperature. Once a person dies, their temperature eventually rises or falls to the temperature of the environment. For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.
Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time. But we're told paramedics did not get a read on his body temp because they were busy performing CPR.
Bottom line -- it's possible Jackson could have been dead much longer than Dr. Murray said. There's no scientific way of knowing.
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That Murray's testimony seemes scripted is a given.
Is it really not possible to determine time of death when they play around with the room temperature? Seems to me that they could at least zoom in on a specific time span with some calculations.
So the paramedics didn't take the temperature, but they worked on him and reported that the body was cold to the touch. I guess turning the heat up didn't work?
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This re-direct is perfect! Murray - scripted. Time of death - can't be determined...
I'm still confused as to whether there was a body there or not that day but it sounds like the body was not "freshly" dead. Sorry, that sounds crass but I can't think of how else to put it. The body would need to have been donated somehow and there's gotta be a legal loophole in there that Michael won't get in trouble. IF there was a body that is, I'm still not convinced on that. All I know is that if there was a body, it sure wasn't Michael's.
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I think there was a body but it was not Michael.
think of it this way they have a body and it goes to the hospital and then to the coroner.
then when it goes missing from the staple center the body is removed and put some place.
if there is no body to reflect back on then how can there be a crime.
and with the propfol could that be why Murry was keeping up with the CPR to keep the blood
moving to get it through the body.
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i am guessing that anti anxiety medication would be given to hospice patient near the end of their life. i have also wondered if propfol could be given to the corpse and the act of cpr would help it to enter the body and look like it was taken before death. does that even sound plausible? :? or awful thought here someone wanted to speed up the process so that they could get the body where they needed it to be . :( question now is who and would michael really be involved in something like this or did someone just take matters into their own hands trapping michael in this mess.
i know i know jacket
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BS! BS BS BS
Complete Bull Shit.
That's is totally completely and utterly not true.
ADDING HEAT SPEEDS UP DECOMPOSITION. Decomposition begins the moment cellular death occurs. This is not difficult or unusual, people have an annoying habit of dying in less then perfectly climate controlled environments all the time.
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME YOU CANNOT MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY DETERMINE A TIME OF DEATH IN THE DEEP SOUTH IN AUGUST? COME ON!
Ok sorry I'll chill.
But it really baffles me, like mouth open, jaw slack baffles me that the gen pub doesn't see through this facade. I wonder if Michael is equally surprised, or did he know this is how they would react? Did he expect this level of numb, mindless, acceptance of what the TV people say?
This is scary. People really are under complete control by the flashing picture box.
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BS! BS BS BS
Complete Bull Shit.
That's is totally completely and utterly not true.
ADDING HEAT SPEEDS UP DECOMPOSITION. Decomposition begins the moment cellular death occurs. This is not difficult or unusual, people have an annoying habit of dying in less then perfectly climate controlled environments all the time.
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME YOU CANNOT MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY DETERMINE A TIME OF DEATH IN THE DEEP SOUTH IN AUGUST? COME ON!
Ok sorry I'll chill.
But it really baffles me, like mouth open, jaw slack baffles me that the gen pub doesn't see through this facade. I wonder if Michael is equally surprised, or did he know this is how they would react? Did he expect this level of numb, mindless, acceptance of what the TV people say?
This is scary. People really are under complete control by the flashing picture box.
i still can't get over the thought that people don't seem to have much reaction to the thought of the guy gettin put to sleep every night for so many weeks, like people do it all the time or something.
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Hmm I see what you're saying Bec. Common sense does seem to elude a lot of the general public unfortunately and people will believe whatever they're told to believe.
The article doesn't actually say anything about decomposition although I find it hard to believe that a time of death can't be pinpointed just because the alleged body was in an allegedly hot room.
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This re-direct is perfect! Murray - scripted. Time of death - can't be determined...
I'm still confused as to whether there was a body there or not that day but it sounds like the body was not "freshly" dead. Sorry, that sounds crass but I can't think of how else to put it. The body would need to have been donated somehow and there's gotta be a legal loophole in there that Michael won't get in trouble. IF there was a body that is, I'm still not convinced on that. All I know is that if there was a body, it sure wasn't Michael's.
Ah I got the same thought a couple of nights ago. After doing some research: here is what I came up with it. viewtopic.php?f=99&t=17076 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=17076)
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Something about the pic they chose makes me call double. Different ears. This one has bigger lobes.
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http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm)
Forensic science provides a number of solutions to solving the mystery question of when a person died. Generally, the longer it has been since the death, the less accurate the estimation given by forensic pathologists.
<snip>
Police arriving at the scene of crime should be capable of estimating how long a person has been dead for, by judging from the body temperature and stiffness of the corpse. However, a more accurate evaluation of the time since death must be made by a forensic pathologist in the forensic laboratory. The pathologists/coroners record the temperature of the body, the temperature at the scene of crime, the weight of the victim and all other appropriate variables, which are then applied to a formula designed to predict the time since death. The core body temperature drops at an estimated rate of 0.8K each hour from the time of death, but is ever-changing dependant on the surrounding temperature, humidity levels, air movement and fat levels in the body. Thus, the less time that has surpassed since the death, the less variables which will affect the prediction.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Hardening
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Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis and occurs as the muscles in the body begin to stiffen from a lack of blood and oxygen. Rigor mortis first becomes apparent in the eyelids and jaws of the victim and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours, before receding again after another 6 to 12 hours. Occasionally, stiffening of the body may not even occur if the surrounding temperatures are very low, while the process occurs a lot quicker in muscles that were quite active before death. Like body temperature, the evidence provided by the level of muscle stiffening becomes of little use after a long period since death.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Truth Lies In The Eyes
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The eyes of a victim can also hold answers to the time of death, as a thin cloudy film is developed over the eye within 3 hours after death has occurred. The eyeballs become softer as a result of less fluid pressure behind the eye and the degree to which this has occurred can be used as a measure of the time since death. Again, a less common procedure for deaths that evidently occurred out of the limit of several days.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Skin Colour
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The colour of the corpse will also help determine the time of death from about 48 hours and onwards. From approximately 48 hours after death, bacteria begins to breed on the skin, giving the skin an evidently greenish tone. The tinge starts in the lower stomach area, spreading outwards and affecting the hands and feet last. Approximately 4-7 days after death, the skin will acquire a marble-like appearance, as the veins in the body become closer to the surface, thus becoming more easily visible.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Blood Pooling
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The pooling of the blood can be a vital clue in determining the time of death and is known as hypostasis. This occurs when the blood ceases flowing, settling in the lowest parts of the body and in turn, causing the skin to become pink and red in colour. This process is complete in up to 6 hours after death. The main use of blood pooling analysis actually lies in helping to determine the death manner (noting that the location of the blood pools indicates the upright position of the body at the time of blood pooling) The process does however, form a method of predicting the time since death.
The Digestive System
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The digestive system and gut contents of a victim can provide important clues to the time of death of a victim. Chewed food will firstly pass through the oesophagus and then down into the stomach within seconds of the initial swallowing. After 3 hours, the food then leaves the stomach and heads toward the small intestines. 6 hours after eating a meal, the food will have traveled half way through the small intestines and begin moving through the large intestine. Where the victim's small intestine is empty, it suggests that the victim ate his or her last meal approximately 8 hours before death. The digestive process usually takes a bit more than a day, but it can be affected by sickness, liquid intake, fear or drug intake.
Pathologists also briefly note that correct level of food digestion corresponds to its location in the digestive system. In the rare case that a clever murderer wishes to delude investigators by attempting to bring forward the time of the victim's last meal (giving them an explanation for where they were at the victim's time of death), he/she may manually feed processed food (resembling that of chewed food) into the victim's stomach. If this is so, the food collected in the stomach will be much less digested than normal, since the periodic motion of the stomach stops after death. The food may indeed appear slightly broken down, due to the presence of the stomach acids, but any abnormalities are otherwise detectable. In older people or in those affected by the effects mentioned earlier (sickness, fear, drug/liquid intake), the efficiency of food digestion alters and it is left to pathologists to determine if the extent of the undigested food is great enough to suggest the mentioned scenario.
Body temperature is only one factor and OF COURSE room temp is taken into account as one of many variables. Nonsense being spun and reported!
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Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.
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Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.
Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* :lol:
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Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.
Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* :lol:
I approach 'that's a wrap' day with mixed emotions, truth be told.
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Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.
Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* :lol:
I approach 'that's a wrap' day with mixed emotions, truth be told.
And the winner isssss Michael Jackson for being the one that left the room for a supposed couple of minutes(not Murray)to go to the bathroom and then reenters the bedroom as Conrad Murray to start this whole hoax...
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Something that stood out to me:
"For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.
Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time."
It's always the 7's and the 9's isn't it?? :D
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90s would be resurrection temperature you know.
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Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.
Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* :lol:
:lol:
It's not important but just for the records:
The "infamous" ambulance picture carried EXIF data:
<exif:DateTimeOriginal>2009-06-25T12:08:08-07:00
If time in the camera was set correctly (which is usually the case amongst professional photographers), the picture was taken 12:08, 18 minutes before the paramedics even arrived at 12:26.
So yes, in the end that would make a lot of sense to have 45 minutes of revival attempts at the house and finally a respiration bag with a dead person that appears to be unrecognizable and 15 years younger than his driver's license states (the latter was used to identify the person at the hospital). Oh btw, the dead person was revived at UCLA and regained a pulse. UCLA is said to be famous for bringing back the dead. ;)
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i remember this story, as if it was yesterday :lol:
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http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm
Forensic science provides a number of solutions to solving the mystery question of when a person died. Generally, the longer it has been since the death, the less accurate the estimation given by forensic pathologists.
<snip>
Police arriving at the scene of crime should be capable of estimating how long a person has been dead for, by judging from the body temperature and stiffness of the corpse. However, a more accurate evaluation of the time since death must be made by a forensic pathologist in the forensic laboratory. The pathologists/coroners record the temperature of the body, the temperature at the scene of crime, the weight of the victim and all other appropriate variables, which are then applied to a formula designed to predict the time since death. The core body temperature drops at an estimated rate of 0.8K each hour from the time of death, but is ever-changing dependant on the surrounding temperature, humidity levels, air movement and fat levels in the body. Thus, the less time that has surpassed since the death, the less variables which will affect the prediction.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Body temperature is only one factor and OF COURSE room temp is taken into account as one of many variables. Nonsense being spun and reported!
The important thing in forensic science is
To tell the time of death they take the temperature of the body by inserting the thermometer instrument into the liver. They actually poke through the body to the liver. The liver temp gives them the accurate temp of the body and then they calculate according to the ambience temp and decide on the time of death.
Obviously they could not poke the body's liver here as they were still trying to resuscitate him.
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So there was a dead body there, but it was not Michael.......I try hard to believe this
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I agree with Bec. An able-minded pathologist would be able to pinpoint a time of death despite the circumstances of room temperature etc. This is obviously another dramatization tactic. Isn't it incredible how something so real parallels the insane? This has to be an illusion as it truly does defy all logic. As I see it, the writer is working on the climax to the story. And it has been quite effective, too; considering the emotional investment expended once hooked. I suspect that every opportunity is being taken to generate more public awareness and interest in the case; hence the odd and very lengthy pre-trial hearing. if you allow it to be so, this can be likened to a nightmare. Are you scared yet???? I suggest we take a breath and wait for the "thriller"!
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The important thing in forensic science is
To tell the time of death they take the temperature of the body by inserting the thermometer instrument into the liver. They actually poke through the body to the liver. The liver temp gives them the accurate temp of the body and then they calculate according to the ambience temp and decide on the time of death.
Obviously they could not poke the body's liver here as they were still trying to resuscitate him.
Absolutel... However- are there not other ways to establish Time of Death during the autopsy process? I don't remember if we ever got a "real time of death" other than the debated 2:26pm at the Hospital.
@Grace:
It's not important but just for the records:
The "infamous" ambulance picture carried EXIF data:
<exif:DateTimeOriginal>2009-06-25T12:08:08-07:00
If time in the camera was set correctly (which is usually the case amongst professional photographers), the picture was taken 12:08, 18 minutes before the paramedics even arrived at 12:26.
That is an amazing detail! You are correct, the time could be off, BUT it is unlikey as we are talking professional photographer. Have you seen the pic with the EXID stamp? Or have you heard or read about it- if so, can you share the source?
Thank you, TS for the redirect! "Scripted" seems to be the right term alright!
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They talked about the trial on the Joy Behar show last night (the first time she's ever brought up the MJ trial that I know of.) So I think this is going mainstream. Mark Geragos was on the panel and he said that he thought it would go to trial and also that the defense has some surprises. Mark Geragos was one of the original lawyers on the molestation trial (I believe) so I don't know if he knows anything. But they spent about 15 minutes on it. Joy Behar is not an MJ fan to say the least concerning the molestation trial but she was very anti-Murray last night...almost sympathatic to MJ. Maybe the tide is turning.
I'm not in a hurry for this to end. MJ has to make sure everything is carried out perfectly for all of this to work...besides, it's great entertainment.
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to me .TS is doing his best to reassure us here......without actually saying the words we want to hear.............................
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Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.
lol I agree with you" bec " on that. :D :D
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I think the significance of the body temperature not being recorded is that it points to the credibility of the Coroner Investigator and the authenticity of the Coroner's Case Report/Autopsy. This is from a post I wrote last year.
...she [the Coroner Investigator, Elissa Fleak] seems to have forgotten a really important part of her job. She recorded the temperature of the hospital room but not the decedent’s body. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... kson3.html (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0208101jackson3.html)
A Coroner Investigator Trainee in LA learns to record body temperature
http://dhrdcap.co.la.ca.us/classspec/in ... &cs_id=553 (http://dhrdcap.co.la.ca.us/classspec/index.cfm?fuseaction=preview.detail&cs_id=553)
probably because body temperature gives the best indication of time of death. http://health.howstuffworks.com/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm (http://health.howstuffworks.com/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm).
Mmmmm seems kind of important. There must be a standard checklist for the investigator to work through. How likely is it that an investigator forgot to record and report body temperature? :?:
Also - Elissa Fleak has the words lies and fake in her name. Another coincidence?
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BS! BS BS BS
Complete Bull Shit.
That's is totally completely and utterly not true.
ADDING HEAT SPEEDS UP DECOMPOSITION. Decomposition begins the moment cellular death occurs. This is not difficult or unusual, people have an annoying habit of dying in less then perfectly climate controlled environments all the time.
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME YOU CANNOT MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY DETERMINE A TIME OF DEATH IN THE DEEP SOUTH IN AUGUST? COME ON!
Ok sorry I'll chill.
But it really baffles me, like mouth open, jaw slack baffles me that the gen pub doesn't see through this facade. I wonder if Michael is equally surprised, or did he know this is how they would react? Did he expect this level of numb, mindless, acceptance of what the TV people say?
This is scary. People really are under complete control by the flashing picture box.
Your comments are spot on. It really is unbelievable isn't it. I have a friend who is a nurse and is 'confused' by Murray's behavior, but still is not questioning the official story. And of course she thinks I"M crazy because I don't believe he's dead.
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I have to repost this from 2009 (all credits go to an unknown author):
It must be the moon!
Michael Joseph Jackson was found dead in his bedroom on 25th June 2009 at his rented Holmby Hills Mansion, he was also found dead in his doctors bedroom as well as alive with a slight pulse in a guest bedroom.
He had died 3 hours before the ambulance was called from an overdose of Demerol administered to himself by himself, while listening to the Gipsy Kings, he also died 1 hour before the ambulance was called by a lethal injection of Propofol administered by his Cardiologist who thought it would be a great idea to administer CPR on a bed for an hour. After this Michael was rushed to hospital in an ambulance doing 5 miles an hour where his body finally died after being dead.
Let’s rewind a tad. It is now at this point that I learn that Mr Jackson was in fact a junkie hopped up on enough meds to kill a whorde of wild wilderbeeste. He of course passed his medical with flying colours and went on to practice for his upcoming shows that he both dreaded and looked forward to. His dancing was energetic and not dissimilar to that of a 20 year old with back problems, a hernia and an aging disease similar to Benjamin Button.
He was in high spirits and excited about the upcoming tour. He was also angry about it and cried himself to sleep.
Since his death, Michael has been cremated, he has also been buried at forest lawn and neverland, put on ice, dug up again and is now awaiting to be buried on his birthday as a sort of loving present from his father.
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I don't know that demons case in that house on 25 June 2009, but if what they say the paramedicos is the truth, not to recognize Michael by that seemed an old man, or a pasiente hospice or a terminally , definitely not talking about the same person, Michael Jackson.
I am asking who died that day,..or before.
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This is the media's timeline:
12.21pm (local LA time) (8.21pm BST) - Paramedics respond to a call at Jackson's home. He was not breathing when they arrived but had a personal physician with him. The paramedics performed CPR.
As this was happening: TMZ.com report Jackson, 50, suffered a heart attack and paramedics were unable to revive him
1pm (9pm) - Star's father Joe Jackson tells E! News 'he is not doing well.'
1.14pm (9.14pm) - Jackson arrives at hospital. A team of doctors attempt to resuscitate him for more than an hour.
1.35pm (9.35pm) – Jackson is in a coma and his family arrive at his bedside. Sister LaToya Jackson runs into the hospital sobbing.
1.45pm (9.45pm) - Hundreds of fans gather outside the hospital, anxiously waiting for news.
1.50pm (9.50pm) - 'He had a heart attack,' father Joe Jackson tells E! News by phone from Las
Vegas. 'He is not OK.'
2.26pm (10.26pm) - Jackson is officially pronounced dead.
2.35pm (10.35pm) – Fire official tells LA Times that Jackson is in hospital. This is then reported by Associated Press
2.44pm (10.44pm) - TMZ.com breaks news Jackson has died, leading Google to crash.
3.27pm (11.27pm) – AP reports that a person with knowledge of the situation says Michael Jackson has died
4.25pm (12.25am) - CNN reports Jackson has died after confirmation from coroner's ofifice
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4410&start=0
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What a mess!
Under normal conditions the body equals the room temperature after 24 hours. (Bouchut formula).
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So, followig the body temperature; was Michael dead 24 hours before? makes no sense! no according to the activities that Michael engaged during the 23 and 24th.
If there was a body, was the body of someone who died the day before and then placed in the room?
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So, followig the body temperature; was Michael dead 24 hours before? makes no sense! no according to the activities that Michael engaged during the 23 and 24th.
If there was a body, was the body of someone who died the day before and then placed in the room?
Yeah, I'm wondering if there could of been a dead body preplanned enough in advance to put in the room after rigor mortis had set in and past the 72 hr rigid time and placed there after it has gone limp again. Then heat up the body to seem like it was hours old. Does anyone know if there is a way to tell how long a body has been dead after the rigor mortis stage has come and gone?
Also wondering if it is possible to change the legal name of a corpse? Maybe they had the dead bodies name changed to Micheal Joesph Jackson so any testimony in court would be accurate, just a different MJ!! Anyone know if this is possible?
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So, followig the body temperature; was Michael dead 24 hours before? makes no sense! no according to the activities that Michael engaged during the 23 and 24th.
If there was a body, was the body of someone who died the day before and then placed in the room?
Yeah, I'm wondering if there could of been a dead body preplanned enough in advance to put in the room after rigor mortis had set in and past the 72 hr rigid time and placed there after it has gone limp again. Then heat up the body to seem like it was hours old. Does anyone know if there is a way to tell how long a body has been dead after the rigor mortis stage has come and gone?
Also wondering if it is possible to change the legal name of a corpse? Maybe they had the dead bodies name changed to Micheal Joesph Jackson so any testimony in court would be accurate, just a different MJ!! Anyone know if this is possible?
Under a normal temperature rigor mortis usually occurs within 3-4 hours after clinical death and rigor tends to have a full effect on 12 hours.
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May be was a frozen body that was set in the room and defroze (yes, sounds morbid)
As an example; For the quality of the "meat" , the flesh, the meat is frozen immediately after animal sacrifice to increase the concentration of calcium outside and occurs a phenomenon called shortening by cold, by which the meat is reduced to one third of its size, and therefore a loss of water, vitamins, minerals and water-soluble proteins as well as the meat gets tough.
Wasn´t "Michaels body" reported as small, frail, tiny and little weight? :roll:
I am not saying that a human body was shrank 1/3 of its original size, but what if.....a frozen body was used?
I am about to puke here :lol:
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I can´t stop thinking about Dr Gunther von Hagens. His work is really showing "the man in the mirror".
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In 2009 it was reported that Gunter von Hagens' team had received an inquiry of interest but no formal request. In addition, the bodies prepared by Gunter von Hagens are anonymous. Names of donors will never be published. So we would never know.
I think this is more about the donation program to UCLA.
Maybe there is a deal for a body donated to UCLA ?
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I can´t stop thinking about Dr Gunther von Hagens. His work is really showing "the man in the mirror".
It's very important for us to recollect the news before Michael died....there are so many clues.
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Or....Michael being Michael, took in someone "ailing" and let him live out his life there and then planned an escape for whenever that person died. Thus, why no Michael Jackson at the hosp. And why the autopsy don't match his shape. Or, it was one of his doubles that lived there, suffered some illness and that was who the dr. was really needed for on the tour. During the practicing he lived at Carolwood, and murray came there for him. As he was terminal, the escape hinged upon whenever he died. That part was spontaneous. The cover up was covering Michael's guest so he could escape.
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:) This is not a Hoax for the faint hearted... beware! Risk of cardiac arrest! :)
The article title "Jackson Time of Death a Mystery" is my main take from this re-direct!
All we know for sure is that the time of death is a mystery because nobody seems to know or want to say anything about it!
And reading between the lines, I am just getting TS message as Michael time of death is a mystery because he is alive (and let's not forget that He is the ultimate man of Mystery ;) )!
We can theorise as much as we want about a body or no body but i don't think we have any facts to enlighten our "investigation".
I also thought that a corpse was used, this corpse happened to be male and sufficiently thin to pass for MJ and have been preserved sufficiently well so that experienced doctors would not questioned its "authenticity". This same corpse would also have needed to be injected the relevant drugs so that to provide valid autopsy results! ... and the associated lies to authenticate the corpse!
And as the whole numerology is based on specific date and even times, this corpse would have needed to be available just in time!
Thinking about it now! It just seems to be too far fetched! then did he used a dummy and if so which type of dummy? Could he have commissioned some work by Gunter von Hagens/others to create a "semi-human" dummy which could fool experienced medics, more so if Murray was interfering and conveniently keeping them away?
Could then the coroner have been paid off to fake the autopsy or a different corpse used at UCLA?
Or is the whole event staged, including the preliminary hearings and possible trial, and done with the federal government "blessings"? But this really does not fit well with the NWO message... and could place significant restrictions on what can or cannot be done!
With L.O.V.E
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.... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.
... when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time.
TS said:
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man?
So from this point of view, I get that there was a real human body in that room who was dead for more than an hour. And that was definitely NOT Michael.
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.... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.
... when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time.
TS said:
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man?
So from this point of view, I get that there was a real human body in that room who was dead for more than an hour. And that was definitely NOT Michael.
Yep I agree.
Also added to this, remember the 911 call...there was NEVER a name of a person mentioned.....just that it was a "gentleman who was not breathing".
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It's great to have received this redirect BEFORE Sade Anding's testimony today. So on point, TS. ;) 8-) I'm gonna kick-back, exhale, and watch it all unfold in your own time, Michael. Got Faith?
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Could somehow the time of death be faked...if MJ were to use a double that maybe died a few days earlier could he make it look like the person died on June 25th?
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I say...
No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.
Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.
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Could he have commissioned some work by Gunter von Hagens/others to create a "semi-human" dummy which could fool experienced medics, more so if Murray was interfering and conveniently keeping them away? Could then the coroner have been paid off to fake the autopsy or a different corpse used at UCLA? Or is the whole event staged, including the preliminary hearings and possible trial, and done with the federal government "blessings"? But this really does not fit well with the NWO message... and could place significant restrictions on what can or cannot be done!
I'm with the "whole events staged" theory. It may be way out there but that's how I see everything that Michael does - way out there, breaking all the frontiers and leaving gob-smacked people in his wake. If this whole thing has been a type of movie acted out on a large movie set, then there'd be no legal implications because no-one has broken any laws. Have any of you watched the U.K. series "Jonathan Creek"? Whenever I think of the hoax I think back to this series and how illusion is used to create a false sense of reality. Could Michael be employing similar techniques to create a false sense of reality in regard to the events of 06/25/09, plus the memorial, burial, and now the preliminary hearing?
Don't forget all those trash cans/garbage bins which appeared at each event ;)
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i am so frightened :shock: THRILLER :o
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Where did the idea that the room was sweltering first crop up? I don't remember anyone testifying to that (not that that means anything) but I do remember one of the paramedics saying the 'patient' was cold to touch. Late June in California? Was it simply a hot day?
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I say...
No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.
Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.
But they didn't need to keep the room warm for a dummy. The paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and I remember they said that he looked like an old Asian guy :lol: It's not too hard to find a dead person. So I go with the real body in the room theory.
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I say...
No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.
Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.
But they didn't need to keep the room warm for a dummy. The paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and I remember they said that he looked like an old Asian guy :lol: It's not too hard to find a dead person. So I go with the real body in the room theory.
Classic diversion. Warming the room would have zero effect on hiding the fact that someone had died hours or days earlier.
Zero.
No effect. We need to understand that forensic science is not that simple nor easily manipulated. There are many physical factors that are used to determine time of death, presence and progression of rigor, pressure and consistency of the fluid in the eyeballs, presence and location of digested food in the gut, and more... and the media is trying to make you believe that room temperature throws a wrench in the coroner's work. It doesn't and wouldn't.
As far as the testimony, the ambulance pic doesn't even come close to matching the description the EMTs have given. In any case, the EMTs have to be actors if the 911 call was fake, which is almost certainly the case. Real EMTs don't show up after you make a fake 911 call.
We need to move past these points, we are getting tripped up on easily debunked theories.
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I say...
No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.
Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.
But they didn't need to keep the room warm for a dummy. The paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and I remember they said that he looked like an old Asian guy :lol: It's not too hard to find a dead person. So I go with the real body in the room theory.
Classic diversion. Warming the room would have zero effect on hiding the fact that someone had died hours or days earlier.
Zero.
No effect. We need to understand that forensic science is not that simple nor easily manipulated. There are many physical factors that are used to determine time of death, presence and progression of rigor, pressure and consistency of the fluid in the eyeballs, presence and location of digested food in the gut, and more... and the media is trying to make you believe that room temperature throws a wrench in the coroner's work. It doesn't and wouldn't.
As far as the testimony, the ambulance pic doesn't even come close to matching the description the EMTs have given. In any case, the EMTs have to be actors if the 911 call was fake, which is almost certainly the case. Real EMTs don't show up after you make a fake 911 call.
We need to move past these points, we are getting tripped up on easily debunked theories.
I agree with you Bec - all the way. I feel Michael (and TS) wants us to look OUTSIDE the box - and not just outside the box with our noses pressed right up against it either ;) In this hoax, things are never as they first appear to be. We have been witnessing a very clever display of the art of illusion - something that has never been attempted on such a large scale. That's my spin on it anyway, but of course I don't expect people to see it how I see it. We should all rejoice in our own individuality and this is exactly what has made Michael stand out from the crowd from the time he was born. Love, peace & blessings, emerald xo
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I say...
No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.
Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.
But they didn't need to keep the room warm for a dummy. The paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and I remember they said that he looked like an old Asian guy :lol: It's not too hard to find a dead person. So I go with the real body in the room theory.
Classic diversion. Warming the room would have zero effect on hiding the fact that someone had died hours or days earlier.
Zero.
No effect. We need to understand that forensic science is not that simple nor easily manipulated. There are many physical factors that are used to determine time of death, presence and progression of rigor, pressure and consistency of the fluid in the eyeballs, presence and location of digested food in the gut, and more... and the media is trying to make you believe that room temperature throws a wrench in the coroner's work. It doesn't and wouldn't.
As far as the testimony, the ambulance pic doesn't even come close to matching the description the EMTs have given. In any case, the EMTs have to be actors if the 911 call was fake, which is almost certainly the case. Real EMTs don't show up after you make a fake 911 call.
We need to move past these points, we are getting tripped up on easily debunked theories.
I agree with you Bec - all the way. I feel Michael (and TS) wants us to look OUTSIDE the box - and not just outside the box with our noses pressed right up against it either ;) In this hoax, things are never as they first appear to be. We have been witnessing a very clever display of the art of illusion - something that has never been attempted on such a large scale. That's my spin on it anyway, but of course I don't expect people to see it how I see it. We should all rejoice in our own individuality and this is exactly what has made Michael stand out from the crowd from the time he was born. Love, peace & blessings, emerald xo
Yes.
So the EMTs are lying on the stand. The pic is proof of that.
And we can't say oh well the ambulance ic is a fake.
If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.
So ET hasn't filed fraud complaints against Ben. No one in 19 months on the forum has been able to prove that pic is fake. No One.
I have to then draw the conclusion that the pic is real. (I have always thought it was real). To support the pic being real:
It was sold to a major news media company. Proof it was sold: photographer's spoken videotaped statement and the photo appearing 6/26/09 on the cover of commercial magazines.
Upon inspection, no photoshop lines or irregularities are present.
The badges on the EMTs arms are the correct, current LAFD badge.
The equipment pictured in the back round of the ambulance interior is consistent with equipment inside ambulances at current, verified by currently employed paramedics.
The equipment being used on the "patient" is consistent with the situation, as verified by professionals currently employed in the field.
We have 3 separate video taped footages of the scene that day, from three different angles of the exact moment when the photographer takes these ambulance photos through the side window by pressing the camera against the glass. By using both films, the entire sequence of events can be witnessed from start to finish.
The reflection visible in the photo is consistant with the scene on video.
To support the pic being fake:
Brian Oxman said he was "95% sure it was most likely photoshopped." This means he is speculating.
...and that's it really. The most logical conclusion that can be reached when considering all of the information is MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ doesn't indicate that the photo is a fake, MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ only suggests that the MJ is a fake.
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@Bec
Well it's just theories about what happened on that day and how it happened. And still the dead body in the room makes sense to me. Not everyone can be in on the hoax. Paramedics could be telling the truth about how they couldn't recognize MJ or how he looked like an Asian guy. It is still no hard to find a body who died a couple of hours earlier. Maybe your theory is right but still mine makes perfect sense to me. This is fiction in reality and reality in fiction and some of the things we see are the reality in fiction part of the hoax. Not everything we hear is made up. It is important to make the difference btw the two.
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http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/08/26/0625_mj_getty_85154943_ex-1.jpg)
<TMZ>Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner cannot pinpoint the time of Michael Jackson's death ... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.
Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.<TMZ>
This entire timeline changed during this prelim trial... and keeps changing... quote from court 1/4/11: "Deputy District Attorney, David Walgren said he will rely on Murray's statements to police, as well as text messages, phone records and expert testimony to show the doctor should stand trial.
He said evidence will show Murray waited at least 21 minutes to call 911 and ordered a bodyguard to help him clean up evidence before summoning help. In the most favorable scenario, Walgren said, Murray waited at least nine minutes before calling paramedics."
So what happened to the hour and a half, Deputy?
<TMZ>Sources say cops are suspicious of Dr. Murray's account. They say when Dr. Murray was interviewed by them two days after Jackson died -- his lawyer by his side -- the doctor's account seemed "scripted."
So when did Jackson really die? Rigor mortis typically doesn't set in for at least 3 hours, and often longer.<TMZ>
That's not what these sources say: "Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis." http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm) "Rigor ... normally begins roughly two hours after death and can last for anything from twenty to thirty hours." http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/estim ... death.html (http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/estimating-the-time-of-death.html) "Rigor starts forming between 1-2 hours after death" http://scienceray.com/biology/human-bio ... z1AQH2ajD8 (http://scienceray.com/biology/human-biology/forensic-pathology-determining-time-of-death/#ixzz1AQH2ajD8). "The body enters rigor mortis within fifteen minutes after death and continues to stiffen for up to fifteen hours." http://www.ehow.com/how_2073756_determi ... z1AQIJFDz6 (http://www.ehow.com/how_2073756_determine-bodys-time-death.html#ixzz1AQIJFDz6)
<TMZ>If rigor mortis has not set in, the only way to approximate time of death is by body temperature. <TMZ>
I think I proved with the four sources above, if rigor hadn't set in at all... the body hasn't been dead very long at all. And temp isn't FAR from the only way to approximate t.o.d. If you consider rigor starts with the eyelids and jaw and progressively spreads through the body, I have a very very hard time believing that a paramedic who checked pupil response and inserted the tracheal tube didn't notice rigor in the eyelids and jaw? By personal experience, I'm going to attest that rigor in the eyelids sets in FAST. If you've ever experienced a dead pet you know. A paramedic is NOT going to be fooled by a dead body. Nor will there be any question about it. Our trial paramedics refuse to even come out and say it, they just suggest that they suspected he was dead. I mean, when you consider the rigor in the eyelids... you're either dead or not. There's no suspecting anything. Even if they simply went along to appease Murray, you are not going to be able to insert a trachael tube into a corpse very easily.
<TMZ> Once a person dies, their temperature eventually rises or falls to the temperature of the environment. For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.
Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time. But we're told paramedics did not get a read on his body temp because they were busy performing CPR. <TMZ>
I fail to see the "problem" TMZ. Considering body temp in a corpse will drop 1 to 1 and 1/2 degrees per hour until it matches the room temperature, and the rate of this temp drop can be affected by the room temp, a body in a 90* room would take longer to cool, and a body in a 30* room less time to cool.... you have still 8 hours for a 98* body to reach 90*, and no one has suggested that MJ died at 4am. In any case, there is no problem regardless of how long dead and how hot the room as forensics has a formula to deal with this. Here's an online calculator to determine time of death using variables including room temperature: http://www.pathguy.com/TimeDead.htm (http://www.pathguy.com/TimeDead.htm) Imagine that.
<TMZ>Bottom line -- it's possible Jackson could have been dead much longer than Dr. Murray said. There's no scientific way of knowing.<TMZ> :shock: :? :lol: :roll: :|
Yes of course there's many scientific ways of knowing. Here are some:
The eyes of a victim can also hold answers to the time of death, as a thin cloudy film is developed over the eye within 3 hours after death has occurred. The eyeballs become softer as a result of less fluid pressure behind the eye and the degree to which this has occurred can be used as a measure of the time since death.
The pooling of the blood can be a vital clue in determining the time of death and is known as hypostasis. This occurs when the blood ceases flowing, settling in the lowest parts of the body and in turn, causing the skin to become pink and red in colour. This process is complete in up to 6 hours after death.
The digestive system and gut contents of a victim can provide important clues to the time of death of a victim. Chewed food will firstly pass through the oesophagus and then down into the stomach within seconds of the initial swallowing. After 3 hours, the food then leaves the stomach and heads toward the small intestines. 6 hours after eating a meal, the food will have traveled half way through the small intestines and begin moving through the large intestine. Where the victim's small intestine is empty, it suggests that the victim ate his or her last meal approximately 8 hours before death. The digestive process usually takes a bit more than a day
[/color]
This TMZ article from 2009 is really, really full of horrible misinformation. I did about 15 min of internet research and really, copying and pasting for this post took longer then just reading the various articles written on the subject. Whoever wrote this article and all the others just like it obviously just put into quotes what one person says and calls it an article, no research, not even a Google search.
We cannot get side tracked by this stuff guys. It's not true what they're trying to paint as reality.
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Outstanding post and reserach, thank you, Bec!
All this boils down to: don't believe what you read- research and inquire yourself and you will find facts.
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just as michael said......"dont believe what you read"
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Yes.
So the EMTs are lying on the stand. The pic is proof of that.
And we can't say oh well the ambulance ic is a fake.
If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.
So ET hasn't filed fraud complaints against Ben. No one in 19 months on the forum has been able to prove that pic is fake. No One.
I have to then draw the conclusion that the pic is real. (I have always thought it was real). To support the pic being real:
It was sold to a major news media company. Proof it was sold: photographer's spoken videotaped statement and the photo appearing 6/26/09 on the cover of commercial magazines.
Upon inspection, no photoshop lines or irregularities are present.
The badges on the EMTs arms are the correct, current LAFD badge.
The equipment pictured in the back round of the ambulance interior is consistent with equipment inside ambulances at current, verified by currently employed paramedics.
The equipment being used on the "patient" is consistent with the situation, as verified by professionals currently employed in the field.
We have 3 separate video taped footages of the scene that day, from three different angles of the exact moment when the photographer takes these ambulance photos through the side window by pressing the camera against the glass. By using both films, the entire sequence of events can be witnessed from start to finish.
The reflection visible in the photo is consistant with the scene on video.
To support the pic being fake:
Brian Oxman said he was "95% sure it was most likely photoshopped." This means he is speculating.
...and that's it really. The most logical conclusion that can be reached when considering all of the information is MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ doesn't indicate that the photo is a fake, MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ only suggests that the MJ is a fake.
Bec, on this I am not with you as to the scenery and the resulting video tapes and pictures. They are all contradicting each other. In one video you see pylones around the firetruck, in the next one they are gone, one tape has the tourist bus standing in the middle of the street aside the firetruck, one tape has them parked behind the red car. The reflection of the red car is not correct since the photographer is shooting while the ambulance is not exactly parallel to the Toyota. In one video the darkhaired guy is turning from the back door to run to his car (see also the "proof of the picture shooting"), in the other he's aside the blond (Chris Weiss) that presses his camera towards the side window.
The shadows on the garbage bins and street were different in shape and length in the different takes.
The last obvious proof of the picture manipulations is the comparison of the "old" picture and the "new" picture. The turn light on the red car slips from the exact middle of the tire to the left (where it should actually be placed). In one shot the bag in front of the EMT's leg is open, in the other it is closed - how's that feasible in a real shooting just milliseconds apart when the EMT's position is exactly the same? (see thread on the new ambulance pic) This is a very good photoshop job done. The red car is a Toyota Prius and may be belonging either to Michael or to Ben Evenstad who told a story about Michael taking his kids in it for a joyride.
This MIchael not being the current one?
Of course - here we meet again.
Michael was killed in many aspects in the first and the second trial.
I would imagine, he never was the same person again - leading to this documentary reality show - documenting at the same time while reveiling and showing reality.
In this we do accompany him on either side, being in the focus as his witnesses and advocates, his friends and documenting staff.
He's putting the spots sometimes on where we should look at and into and draw truth into daylight. We are the reporters that were not present at that time.
He's getting the healing and satisfaction these days he could not have then.
God bless.
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Yes.
So the EMTs are lying on the stand. The pic is proof of that.
And we can't say oh well the ambulance ic is a fake.
If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.
So ET hasn't filed fraud complaints against Ben. No one in 19 months on the forum has been able to prove that pic is fake. No One.
I have to then draw the conclusion that the pic is real. (I have always thought it was real). To support the pic being real:
It was sold to a major news media company. Proof it was sold: photographer's spoken videotaped statement and the photo appearing 6/26/09 on the cover of commercial magazines.
Upon inspection, no photoshop lines or irregularities are present.
The badges on the EMTs arms are the correct, current LAFD badge.
The equipment pictured in the back round of the ambulance interior is consistent with equipment inside ambulances at current, verified by currently employed paramedics.
The equipment being used on the "patient" is consistent with the situation, as verified by professionals currently employed in the field.
We have 3 separate video taped footages of the scene that day, from three different angles of the exact moment when the photographer takes these ambulance photos through the side window by pressing the camera against the glass. By using both films, the entire sequence of events can be witnessed from start to finish.
The reflection visible in the photo is consistant with the scene on video.
To support the pic being fake:
Brian Oxman said he was "95% sure it was most likely photoshopped." This means he is speculating.
...and that's it really. The most logical conclusion that can be reached when considering all of the information is MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ doesn't indicate that the photo is a fake, MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ only suggests that the MJ is a fake.
Bec, on this I am not with you as to the scenery and the resulting video tapes and pictures. They are all contradicting each other. In one video you see pylones around the firetruck, in the next one they are gone This is a result of out-of-sequence editing. The ending of the footage is cut and pasted from the beginning of the events. Someone cut the beginning and placed it at the end. I have reviewed the tapes extensively and this is clear from the footage. At the end of the tape (beginning) we see the part of the footage where the Fireman is setting up the cones and the tour bus has just arrived., one tape has the tourist bus standing in the middle of the street aside the firetruck, one tape has them parked behind the red car This is simply caused by perspective, ie where the camera is located. The part in the footage that shows this is blurry, fast moving, and the camera is bouncing around because the man holding it is running. The view you are refering to is the result of one captured frame which is obscurred by rapid movement and is not clear. Regardless, I reviewed it as well and do not see clear evidence of this discrepancy. . The reflection of the red car is not correct since the photographer is shooting while the ambulance is not exactly parallel to the Toyota. again, this is due to perspectives and angle of the shot. Reflections have a tricky habit of "bending" over metallic objects such as car hoods.In one video the darkhaired guy is turning from the back door to run to his car (see also the "proof of the picture shooting"), in the other he's aside the blond (Chris Weiss) that presses his camera towards the side window These are two different men. If you watch the tape over and over and over and keep your eye on each man as you view, it becomes quite clear, there are absolutely 100% sure two men that cross behind the ambulance as it backs out. One runs away from the scene, one runs around the side, and thus results in taking the photograph. One man is wearing shorts, the other is wearing long pants..
The shadows on the garbage bins and street were different in shape and length in the different takes. In an outdoor environment, there can and are multiple light sources that cause shadows to not always coincide with each other.
The last obvious proof of the picture manipulations is the comparison of the "old" picture and the "new" picture. The turn light on the red car slips from the exact middle of the tire to the left (where it should actually be placed).Again, talking about reflections of a reflection, which are tricky to nail down, predict, and determine where they "should" be when you are dealing with rounded metallic objects, windows, and camera angles all over the place. In one shot the bag in front of the EMT's leg is open, in the other it is closed - how's that feasible in a real shooting just milliseconds apart when the EMT's position is exactly the same? (see thread on the new ambulance pic)I'm all over that thread and I haven't seen this, would you do a pic thing here and illustrate what you mean about open bag vs. closed bag? This is a very good photoshop job done. The red car is a Toyota Prius and may be belonging either to Michael or to Ben Evenstad who told a story about Michael taking his kids in it for a joyride.Yeah but there's a lot of red Toyota Prius's in the world.
Just to reiterate so you don't miss it as you read, could you, Grace, show me what you mean about open vs. closed bag in the shots? Thanky!
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It's this thread:
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=17127
Compare the lower side, right in the middle, in front of the leg.
The emergency kit shows its full metal head in one pic, in the other the reflection of the car gives the impression of a closed bag surrounding it.
Now you may say, of course, the movement of the vehicle caused this modification of the reflection. But this does not explain the shift of the turn light in comparison to the tire and torque (green square). And as I said, when the pictures were shot (see the "proof picture") the ambulance was not standing in parallel to the parked red car but moving in the middle of the road in full sunshine.
About the videos: I've seen them all, I know about the cut and second part put at first place of the famous press video. The road was even blocked at the junction with Monovale.
There are many threads on those inconsistencies.
I don't mind if we don't agree on these details.
All of that "proof" doesn't fit and there's a good reason for it.
God bless.
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I don't mind if we don't agree on these details.
All of that "proof" doesn't fit and there's a good reason for it.
God bless.
100% agreed and that's the bottom line, isn't it?
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I'm wondering if this re-direct also has something to do with the timings. The title of the article is Jackson Time of Death a Mystery. And we have another TMZ article today titled Dr. Conrad Murray - Winning 'em Over One at a Time. Plus all these contradictory timings coming out at the prelim, maybe there is more to be examined there?
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We are running out of time?
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back, MMJC, 10/25/2006
the evolution of the theory continues, approaching 7, plus 1 day of simmering. The mOMENT of many is apparent as time has become the focal point. Time is obsolete compared to the mOMENT, but it is essentially the only barrier between NOW and THEN.
back, MJJC, 8/25/2006, (bold added by me) this is the famous 7 Day Theory post that predicts the death date:
tHE SUN RISES amidst the clouds, breaking the thickest of the wild blue yonder's momentary scab. It's a brighter day once the scab fickles and dissapates to matter. As the earth continues its' axis rotation, day to night, night to day, the human beings of said planet witness the continuance of the trance we call time. Time is of the essence, so they say. Time is the checkmate of life. Forever spinning in this globe-cast of many different elements there comes a tIME, when time itself takes a backseat to the mOMENT. We, as intelligent beings, decipher and chose when to allow the moment to suspend time. As with the Killuminatti, iN tHEORY, 72 hours previous the logic of a mOment etched within a 7 day theory, is possible, but only tIme will tell. Some things aren't meant for easy translation. But over tIme, it's possible to clearly see the light, if the mOMENT warrants. As the world turns, and the clock spins indefinatly, tick tock tick tock, kEEp track of time and please KEEP WATCHIN'..............
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/6276813smaller.jpg)
Well suddenly this back post I've poured over trying to decipher makes some sense. He says "time" 9 ...er... times. The hair just stood up on the back of my neck a little I admit.
Keep track of time.
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Keep track of time.
I'm thinking so. I think that maybe TIME has much more to do with this than the real body/fake body debate. The re-direct hasn't changed yet when it had been regularly the few days following up to this one. Maybe waiting for us to catch up? Ironic though, considering we could be running out of time, like Bec suggested.
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@bec...I've been pouring over BACK's posts again lately as well and I can say that I, too, have had many 'hair standing on end moments' :shock: There's a wealth of info in his posts and lots of what was confusing about his posts is definitely starting to make sense.
About the 'time' issue and its significance...I came across this post from another site and I thought it was pretty interesting...might tie in with BACK's underlying message of 'time' and perhaps the 'suspending of time'.
They were discussing the M2KV on the picket fence behind Murray....Credit goes to kaleidoscope:
It is all about the 2005 trial that Michael was subjected to unjustly.
I don't know, but perhaps the Murray trial will find Murray "not guilty" based on the fact that Michael was already "dead." Michael "died"on June 13th 2005, at 2:25 in the afternoon, the date and time that the not guilty verdict was read. He may not have died physically, however, the trial killed his beautiful and innocent soul.
Both the date and the time that the verdict was read in 2005, are important in the Murray trial. If we remember back to when Jermaine announced that Michael, "the king of pop," died, he made a point of saying that he "died" at 2:26 in the afternoon. This is one minute after the time at which the not-guilty verdict was read in 2005. Dr. Murray's first court appearance in Los Angeles was on June 14th, which is one day after the June 13th date on which the not-guilty verdict was announced in 2005. Michael's family members were in attendance at Dr. Murray's first court appearance, and they wore the exact same clothing that they wore the first day that Michael was in court. Coincidence? I don't think so.
If you look very closely at that picture with Murray and the paisley tie, you can see several hidden images, faces and masks, in the tie, the tree bark, and the greenery around the tree.
Pretty interesting take...perhaps a closer look at the 2005 timeline would be useful?
With L.O.V.E. always.
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It is all about the 2005 trial that Michael was subjected to unjustly.
I don't know, but perhaps the Murray trial will find Murray "not guilty" based on the fact that Michael was already "dead." Michael "died"on June 13th 2005, at 2:25 in the afternoon, the date and time that the not guilty verdict was read. He may not have died physically, however, the trial killed his beautiful and innocent soul.
Both the date and the time that the verdict was read in 2005, are important in the Murray trial. If we remember back to when Jermaine announced that Michael, "the king of pop," died, he made a point of saying that he "died" at 2:26 in the afternoon. This is one minute after the time at which the not-guilty verdict was read in 2005. Dr. Murray's first court appearance in Los Angeles was on June 14th, which is one day after the June 13th date on which the not-guilty verdict was announced in 2005. Michael's family members were in attendance at Dr. Murray's first court appearance, and they wore the exact same clothing that they wore the first day that Michael was in court. Coincidence? I don't think so.
If you look very closely at that picture with Murray and the paisley tie, you can see several hidden images, faces and masks, in the tie, the tree bark, and the greenery around the tree.
Pretty interesting take...perhaps a closer look at the 2005 timeline would be useful?
With L.O.V.E. always.
I think 2005 is pretty significant too and it is VERY coincidental that there appear to be so many parallels between the two cases.
From Wikipedia, here are the "note worthy" court dates of People Vs. Jackson:
Court dates
2005
* January 31 – Jury selection begins.
* February 24 – Jurors and alternates seated.
* February 28, March 1 – Opening statements begin.
* March 1 – Prosecution testimony begins.
* May 4 – Prosecution rests.
* May 5 – Defense testimony begins.
* May 25 – Defense rests/prosecution rebuttal begins.
* May 27 – Prosecution rebuttal ends/defense offers no rebuttal.
* June 1 – Jury gets instructions.
* June 2, June 3 – Closing arguments.
* June 13 – Verdict delivered.
As of April 15, 2005, all weekdays from February 28, 2005 were court days, except:
* March 31– César Chávez Day (holiday)
* April 6 – funeral of Johnnie Cochran
* May 30 – Memorial Day
A few court days were without jury and without Jackson. On these days motions were discussed and ruled about. These were on March 11 and 18, and the first part of March 28.
There were also several days in which Michael Jackson was unable to attend. These are:
* February 15 – Questioning of potential jurors was postponed until February 22, after Jackson was hospitalized with flu like symptoms.
* March 21 – Court was delayed for 45 minutes, after Jackson showed up late again complaining of back trouble. After meeting with attorneys and the doctor, Melville resumed the court into session without threatening to revoke Jackson's bail.
Verdict
At approximately 2:25pm PDT (21:25 UTC) on June 13, 2005 the jury of the Superior Court of the State of California, held in and for the County of Santa Barbara, determined that Jackson was not guilty of all of the charges he had been accused with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Jackson)
So what other coincidences are to be found?
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"It's an Adventure, a Great Adventure....You want to show them TIME like you've never seen before"
http://www.zshare.net/audio/81024806221bb940/
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@bec...I've been pouring over BACK's posts again lately as well and I can say that I, too, have had many 'hair standing on end moments' :shock: There's a wealth of info in his posts and lots of what was confusing about his posts is definitely starting to make sense.
About the 'time' issue and its significance...I came across this post from another site and I thought it was pretty interesting...might tie in with BACK's underlying message of 'time' and perhaps the 'suspending of time'.
They were discussing the M2KV on the picket fence behind Murray....Credit goes to kaleidoscope:
It is all about the 2005 trial that Michael was subjected to unjustly.
I don't know, but perhaps the Murray trial will find Murray "not guilty" based on the fact that Michael was already "dead." Michael "died"on June 13th 2005, at 2:25 in the afternoon, the date and time that the not guilty verdict was read. He may not have died physically, however, the trial killed his beautiful and innocent soul.
Both the date and the time that the verdict was read in 2005, are important in the Murray trial. If we remember back to when Jermaine announced that Michael, "the king of pop," died, he made a point of saying that he "died" at 2:26 in the afternoon. This is one minute after the time at which the not-guilty verdict was read in 2005. Dr. Murray's first court appearance in Los Angeles was on June 14th, which is one day after the June 13th date on which the not-guilty verdict was announced in 2005. Michael's family members were in attendance at Dr. Murray's first court appearance, and they wore the exact same clothing that they wore the first day that Michael was in court. Coincidence? I don't think so.
If you look very closely at that picture with Murray and the paisley tie, you can see several hidden images, faces and masks, in the tie, the tree bark, and the greenery around the tree.
Pretty interesting take...perhaps a closer look at the 2005 timeline would be useful?
With L.O.V.E. always.
Fascinating. Wonderful compilation, BeTheChange.
The minute the trial was over, and he still faced the stigma of assumed guilt, yes, indeed, I believe you are accurate in your metaphors, MJ died.
Which accounts for the discrepancy in the date, June13th-June 25th. The 25th fits the numerology. 12 days later. The time hearkens back to the 2005 trial...
Holy Shit.
"We have 4 Years to get it right". That has nothing to do with the end of the world, or 4 years from now... that's 4 years from the verdict to the hoax. 4 years to get IT right, and then This Is IT.
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Also, because I coppied these dates back in November and have them post it noted to my desk:
11/18/04 Neverland searched for the second time
11/20/04 MJ arrested and booked
11/23/04 Fans held a vigile for MJ's release from charges
11/25/04 MJs jet was illegally wiretapped and MJ was secretly recorded in convos with his lawyers while in flight
12/18/04 MJ formally charged with 9 counts
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Also, because I coppied these dates back in November and have them post it noted to my desk:
11/18/04 Neverland searched for the second time
11/20/04 MJ arrested and booked
11/23/04 Fans held a vigile for MJ's release from charges
11/25/04 MJs jet was illegally wiretapped and MJ was secretly recorded in convos with his lawyers while in flight
12/18/04 MJ formally charged with 9 counts
I have also been looking at dates as I previously posted in another thread.
November 20, 2003 - MJ Arrested
December 18, 2003 - Charged 7 counts molestation 2 counts intoxicating agent to a minor
January 16, 2004 - Arraignment
March 2004 - Grand Jury convened
April 21, 2004 - Indictment
April 30, 2004 - 2nd Indictment
January 31, 2005 - Jury selection starts
February 28, 2005 - Trial starts
June 13, 2005 @2:25 Verdict is read; Not Guilty
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And something else that just popped out at me is the Hot Air Balloon Hoax!!
Janet Arvizo (Gavin's Mother) insisted that Jackson's associates wanted to keep them there (at Neverland) because of the negative impact of Bashir's documentary on Jackson's image, and, due to damage control, that they were forced to stay to film a rebuttal documentary. Her plan to escape Neverland by hot air balloon was met with widespread laughter in the courtroom.
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Also, because I coppied these dates back in November and have them post it noted to my desk:
11/18/04 Neverland searched for the second time
11/20/04 MJ arrested and booked
11/23/04 Fans held a vigile for MJ's release from charges
11/25/04 MJs jet was illegally wiretapped and MJ was secretly recorded in convos with his lawyers while in flight
12/18/04 MJ formally charged with 9 counts
I have also been looking at dates as I previously posted in another thread.
November 20, 2003 - MJ Arrested
December 18, 2003 - Charged 7 counts molestation 2 counts intoxicating agent to a minor
January 16, 2004 - Arraignment
March 2004 - Grand Jury convened
April 21, 2004 - Indictment
April 30, 2004 - 2nd Indictment
January 31, 2005 - Jury selection starts
February 28, 2005 - Trial starts
June 13, 2005 @2:25 Verdict is read; Not Guilty
Oh geez boy did I get the years all wrong, darn it, I only have the month/days on the post-it so I assumed :oops: Sorry and thanks for the correction SD.
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Also, because I coppied these dates back in November and have them post it noted to my desk:
11/18/04 Neverland searched for the second time
11/20/04 MJ arrested and booked
11/23/04 Fans held a vigile for MJ's release from charges
11/25/04 MJs jet was illegally wiretapped and MJ was secretly recorded in convos with his lawyers while in flight
12/18/04 MJ formally charged with 9 counts
I have also been looking at dates as I previously posted in another thread.
November 20, 2003 - MJ Arrested
December 18, 2003 - Charged 7 counts molestation 2 counts intoxicating agent to a minor
January 16, 2004 - Arraignment
March 2004 - Grand Jury convened
April 21, 2004 - Indictment
April 30, 2004 - 2nd Indictment
January 31, 2005 - Jury selection starts
February 28, 2005 - Trial starts
June 13, 2005 @2:25 Verdict is read; Not Guilty
Oh geez boy did I get the years all wrong, darn it, I only have the month/days on the post-it so I assumed :oops: Sorry and thanks for the correction SD.
Oh, I wasn't even looking at that. I thought it was interesting that we were all looking at the same things! :lol:
You're welcome anyway though ;) :lol:
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I have been lurking on this thread, and I just want to say that I agree with pretty much everything Bec has said. :)
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And something else that just popped out at me is the Hot Air Balloon Hoax!!
Janet Arvizo (Gavin's Mother) insisted that Jackson's associates wanted to keep them there (at Neverland) because of the negative impact of Bashir's documentary on Jackson's image, and, due to damage control, that they were forced to stay to film a rebuttal documentary. Her plan to escape Neverland by hot air balloon was met with widespread laughter in the courtroom.
MJ's Neverland Ride Knows the Way to San Jose
12/9/2010 5:15 AM PST by TMZ Staff
Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch "Balloon Samba" ride has turned up in San Jose.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/12/09/neverland-michael-jackson-balloon-samba-san-jose-fair/
Dr. Conrad Murray -- Winning 'em Over One at a Time
1/9/2011 1:00 AM PST by TMZ Staff
Dr. Conrad Murray has a bit of a PR problem these days -- and since people don't just let you walk up and kiss their baby anymore, he did the next best thing ... he bought a little girl a BALLOON.
http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/09/conrad-murray-balloon-child-gift-santa-monica-michael-jackson-manslaughter-preliminary-hearing/
Michael Jackson Anniversary Plans -- Denied!
6/22/2010 12:23 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
A rep for Forest Lawn -- where MJ is buried -- tells TMZ fans will be allowed into the park on June 25, but not into the mausoleum itself. And the news ain't so good for these special requests:
- Releasing doves (DENIED)
- Releasing balloons (DENIED)
- Performing Jackson songs and dance routines (DENIED)
http://www.tmz.com/2010/06/22/michael-jackson-anniversary-june-25-forest-lawn-cemetery-plans/
Balloons in HOLD MY HAND video:
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1234/20110109212541.png)
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Ah. The balloons in HMH.
Whole lotta hot air, as someone else said before me.
Neat :lol: