Witness: Michael Jackson's doctor seemed not to know CPR

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Offline darkchild

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http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/04/cal ... /?hpt=Sbin

Witness: Michael Jackson's doctor seemed not to know CPR

By Alan Duke,
January 4, 2011 7:07 p.m. EST

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

NEW: Dr. Conrad Murray asked guards if they knew CPR, witness says
Dr. Murray delayed calling 911 for 21 minutes, prosecutor says
Jackson was dead before the ambulance arrived, prosector says
Murray's preliminary hearing could last 2 or 3 weeks

Los Angeles, California (CNN) -- Dr. Conrad Murray seemed not to know how to administer cardiopulmonary resuscitation as he waited for paramedics to arrive at Michael Jackson's house, a witness at Murray's preliminary hearing testified Tuesday.

Former Jackson security chief Faheem Muhammed said he and and guard Alberto Alvarez saw Murray crouched next to Jackson's bed "in a panicked state asking, 'Does anyone know CPR?'"

"I looked at Alberto because we knew Dr. Murray was a heart surgeon, so we were shocked," Muhammed said.

When defense lawyer Ed Chernoff asked if perhaps Murray was only asking for help because he was tired, Muhammed said "The way that he asked it is as if he didn't know CPR."

Jackson appeared to be dead at that time, with his "eyes open and his mouth open, just laying there," he said.


Prosecutor David Walgren earlier said that Murray used "ineffectual CPR with one hand while the patient was prone on a soft bed." Two hands with the patient prone on a hard surface is the proper method, he said.

Muhammed, the third witness on the opening day of the hearing, said he never saw Murray performing CPR on Jackson before paramedics arrived and carried him to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center.

Jackson's mother, Katherine, sister La Toya, and brothers Randy and Jackie sat in the second row of the courtroom during Tuesday's opening session.

Jackson's two oldest children, Prince and Paris, were at their father's bedroom door as the drama unfolded just after noon on June 25, 2009, Muhammed said.

"Paris was on the floor on her hands and knees and she was just crying," he said.

The children would learn two hours later that their father had died when Dr. Murray and Jackson manager Frank Dileo talked to them in a hospital room.

"Frank blurted out and said "Your daddy had a heart attack and died," Jackson personal assistant Michael Williams testified.

Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will decide whether there is "probable cause" to try Murray on an involuntary manslaughter in the pop star's death. The hearing is expected to last two or three weeks, with 20 to 30 witnesses testifying.

Murray waited at least 21 minutes after he found pop star Michael Jackson unresponsive before calling for an ambulance, a prosecutor said at the start of Murray's preliminary hearing Tuesday.

"By all accounts, Michael Jackson was dead in the bedroom at 100 North Carolwood prior to the paramedics' arrival," said Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney David Walgren.

The coroner concluded Jackson died from "acute propofol intoxication," in combination with "the contributory effects of the benzodiazepines," Walgren said.

Propofol is a powerful anesthetic used to "put people under for surgery," and the benzodiazepines were sedatives Murray later acknowledged giving Jackson in the morning before his death, he said.

"Michael Jackson was preparing for one of the most important tours of his life" in the months before his death, Walgren said.

Murray's defense team has hinted it would argue that Jackson was under pressure from the concert promoter, which led him to demand treatments to help him sleep.

Kenny Ortega, who directed Jackson's comeback "This Is It" concerts, was the first of about 30 witnesses to be called by the prosecution.

Ortega described Jackson as "involved, active, participating" at his last rehearsal, which ended just 12 or 14 hours before the singer died.

"He was in a delightful mood and we had an absolutely fantastic day," Ortega testified.

But Ortega described a different, "scary" Michael Jackson at the Staples Center rehearsal on June 19, six nights before his death.

"I just felt that he appeared, you know, really lost," Ortega said. "It was scary. I didn't know what was wrong. I couldn't put my finger on it."

Ortega suggested to Jackson that he cut his rehearsal short and go home to rest.

He was called to a meeting at Jackson's home the next day, where he was "scolded" by Murray for having sent Jackson home the night before, Ortega said.

"Dr. Murray told me that this was not my responsibility and he asked me not to act like a doctor or psychologist," he said.

Ortega said it was an emotional meeting, but he denied yelling at Jackson. "It wasn't yelling," he said. "It was about caring."

"Michael said 'I know you love me and I know you care about me, but you don't have to worry. I'm fine,'" Ortega said. "It was Michael's voice that calmed me."

Randy Phillips, the CEO of concert promoter AEG Live, and Jackson manager Frank Dileo were at this meeting, along with Murray and Jackson, Ortega said.

A civil lawsuit filed last year by Michael Jackson's mother against AEG Live alleged that Phillips visited Jackson's home on June 18, 2009, to warn "that if Jackson missed any further rehearsals, they were going to 'pull the plug' on the show."

"AEG told Murray that he had to make sure Jackson got to rehearsals," Katherine Jackson's lawsuit charged.

The prosecutor told Judge Pastor that medical experts would testify that Murray, hired as Jackson's personal physician while he prepared for his concert tour, took "a number of actions" that "showed an extreme deviation from the standard of care."

In addition to the CPR performed by Murray that the prosecutor described as "ineffectual," this would include administering propofol in a home setting without proper monitoring. No medical equipment that could have monitored Jackson's pulse and breathing were found in the upstairs bedroom, Walgren said.

The 20-minute delay in calling 911 for paramedics was contrary to standard care, he said.

When paramedics arrived, Murray failed to tell them about the propofol or other drugs given to Jackson that morning, Walgren said. That, too, was contrary to standard care, he said. Murray also neglected to tell emergency room doctors who were trying to revive Jackson at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center about the drugs, Walgren said.

Murray remains free on $75,000 bond.
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Offline mjssoulmate

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Why would his eyes be open, if he was under.  That suggests that he woke up and not passed during sleep.  
Also, the kids being in front of the bedroom door totally contradicts what Kai Chase told in her interviews.  Why lie about that?  
That Murray is the worst Cardiologist ever, we already knew.
This is one crazy ride.
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Offline Liberian Girl Heehee

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Quote
Muhammed, the third witness on the opening day of the hearing, said he never saw Murray performing CPR on Jackson before paramedics arrived and carried him to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center.

Well, if Michael was alive, I guess Murray wouldn't have performed CPR on him.... 8-)
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Offline Tarja

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People vs. Dr. Conrad Murray -"Does Anyone Know CPR?"

  • on: January 05, 2011, 02:56:55 AM
Edit: Double post? Delete this. I didn't see it.





MJ Bodyguard -- Murray Asked, "Does Anyone Know CPR?"

Faheem Muhammad, one of Michael Jackson's bodyguards, just testified he was in Michael's room after Murray noticed MJ stopped breathing. Faheem told the prosecutor, Murray was on his knees doing compressions on MJ in a panicked state, when he turned to Faheem and another bodyguard and asked, "Does anyone in the room know CPR?"



Faheem recalled how Prince and Paris were near the room and Paris was on her hands and knees crying.  The nanny took them away.

Faheem also said after Michael was pronounced dead at UCLA, Dr. Murray told him he was hungry and wanted to leave. Faheem said he told Murray to eat at the hospital, but Murray left.

On cross-examination, Ed Chernoff got Faheem to admit Murray spoke with MJ's family and police before leaving.


http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/04/michael-j ... fol-death/
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Offline Tink.I.Am

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:? strange .. If I didn't believe that MJ was alive I would be so angry ad Murray and at michael for having such a crap doctor.  :!:
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Offline VeryLittleSusie

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Ok, so if he was dead before the ambulance arrived so WHY THE HELL WERE THEY PUMPING HIM IN THE AMBULANCE??? (see ambulance photo)

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Offline VeryLittleSusie

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This was actually te first thing that made my friend a non-believer and a non-MJ-fan suspicious: "What?   :shock:  A doctor who doesn't know CPR??"   8-)

Hell yeah!  :lol:
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Offline LavdHim

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Quote from: "VeryLittleSusie"
Ok, so if he was dead before the ambulance arrived so WHY THE HELL WERE THEY PUMPING HIM IN THE AMBULANCE??? (see ambulance photo)


yeah and I wonder they said michael was dead with his eyes open but I didn't see his eyes opened in this photo .  :roll:  :?
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Offline GirlInTheMirror

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I merged the Murray-Cpr-posts and moved it.
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Offline 2good2btrue

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I know this story is made up to seem real, but on the other hand, alot of Doctors don't know how to do CPR.  They totally forget to update their training.  But that is mainly GP's, not Cardiologists.  

Its things like this, that keep me believing
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Offline Pablito

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wasn't the ambulance photo a fake one?
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Offline angelshadow

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Quote from: "Pablito"
wasn't the ambulance photo a fake one?

Yep!
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Offline Pablito

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Quote from: "angelshadow"
Quote from: "Pablito"
wasn't the ambulance photo a fake one?

Yep!

Then I don't know why we are discussing about things like "Why they were pumping him" "Why they had his eyes closed", I mean, that didn't even happened :P
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Offline Pablito

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All this Murray thing is confusing me :(
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Offline angelshadow

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Quote from: "Pablito"
Quote from: "angelshadow"
Quote from: "Pablito"
wasn't the ambulance photo a fake one?

Yep!

Then I don't know why we are discussing about things like "Why they were pumping him" "Why they had his eyes closed", I mean, that didn't even happened :P

I also think this we do not need to discuss. It is dull fake and does not help us ;)

Keep the Faith Pablito...*hugs*
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Offline Butterflyaway

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Yes the pic was fake, just like all of this is fake.

The purpose of the pic is that, it was presented as a real picture of MJ in the ambulance.  Now we have all this information being presented to us of what happened on that day as being real.

So they are saying that MJ was dead already; Yet they still took him to the hospital, and continued to work on him in the ambulance.  This suggests he wasn't dead.

His eyes and mouth were open. yet we have a pic suggesting otherwise. (However they could have very well closed his eyes and mouth)

They point i'm trying to make is that all the information we have already heard, is going to be contradicted by the information we are going to hear.  It's already happening; with not just this story, but with what Kai Chase said also.  

Kids not upstairs V.S Kids upstairs

And by the way; I'll leave you guys with this question.  Where was Blanket during all of this?
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Offline allforus7

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In response to the title: yes , the doctor knew. He just asked for help, as in: does anyone else know CPR.
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Offline shelby61

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Quote from: "Butterflyaway"
Yes the pic was fake, just like all of this is fake.

The purpose of the pic is that, it was presented as a real picture of MJ in the ambulance.  Now we have all this information being presented to us of what happened on that day as being real.

Kids not upstairs V.S Kids upstairs

And by the way; I'll leave you guys with this question.  Where was Blanket during all of this?

Well, maybe he was heading to the airport as well  ;)
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Offline DancingTheDream

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They are pumping him in the ambulance, because Dr Murray over-ruled the paramedics and demanded MJ be took to the hospital.   Paramedics dont stop trying to resusitate until death is called.   No one was prepared to make that call at the house.   Apparently the Paramedics wanted to, but Murray over-ruled them.  
Its standard practice to keep going with CPR like that, even if paramedics know there is no hope...  they keep going until a doctor rules the time of death.

About the open eyes...  eyes can open at the time of death.  It doesnt mean MJ was awake when he died...  he could have been under the anesthetic and asleep when he died..  but when the time came for his heart to stop and his lungs to stop breathing, his eyes would open as a matter of nature.
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Offline fidel

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Quote from: "darkchild"
Jackson's mother, Katherine, sister La Toya, and brothers Randy and Jackie sat in the second row of the courtroom during Tuesday's opening session.


i dont understand. was or was randy not there?

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Offline LadyMedic

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Quote from: "darkchild"
Two hands with the patient prone on a hard surface is the proper method, he said.

Heehee! That's a little off. Prone means face down. Supine is face up. I think he meant supine... Good God! Doesn't ANYONE involved in this have any idea how to do CPR!?

Quote from: "VeryLittleSusie "
Ok, so if he was dead before the ambulance arrived so WHY THE HELL WERE THEY PUMPING HIM IN THE AMBULANCE??? (see ambulance photo)
Because Murray insisted they continue resuscitative measures. They had already done 20 minutes of ACLS protocols and wanted to call it on scene because at that point, attempts were futile. Murray, unfortunately, put himself in a position above the paramedics and told them he would transport with them and they were to continue.

And for the record, I absolutely 100% believe that is a real photo. Oxman didn't confirm anything. The equipment in that photo is entirely current, so it's not old. It may be photoshopped, and that could be a dummy, but everything about that photo aside from that, I have full confidence saying is real (see my blog for more info about that).

Quote from: "VeryLittleSusie "
Its standard practice to keep going with CPR like that, even if paramedics know there is no hope... they keep going until a doctor rules the time of death.
This is not true. Well, ish. If you're implying that they had to listen to Murray, you're correct. If you're saying that paramedics must continue until a MD calls it, that's not correct. Nearly every EMS system allows paramedics to presume the patient on scene. They don't have to even begin CPR if they believe it will be futile. Some places need to call an MD from the scene and tell them they have a patient that is dead and they're not starting CPR, and the MD just gives the time of death. This would have been the case had Murray not instructed them to continue. He had CPR performed with no positive changes, so they were going to stop and call the MD at the hospital to get a time of death.
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Offline MeandMyShadow

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Quote from: "DancingTheDream"
They are pumping him in the ambulance, because Dr Murray over-ruled the paramedics and demanded MJ be took to the hospital.   Paramedics dont stop trying to resusitate until death is called.   No one was prepared to make that call at the house.   Apparently the Paramedics wanted to, but Murray over-ruled them.  
Its standard practice to keep going with CPR like that, even if paramedics know there is no hope...  they keep going until a doctor rules the time of death.

About the open eyes...  eyes can open at the time of death.  It doesnt mean MJ was awake when he died...  he could have been under the anesthetic and asleep when he died..  but when the time came for his heart to stop and his lungs to stop breathing, his eyes would open as a matter of nature.


Maybe they don't all do it that way.  My mother had a heart attack and they worked on her at the house, while getting her into the ambulance.  I road in the front to the hospital.  They were not pumping her.  And yet, there was not a doctor there to declair her dead.  I was totally clueless at the time that she was acutally dead.
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Offline LadyMedic

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Quote from: "MeandMyShadow"
Quote from: "DancingTheDream"
They are pumping him in the ambulance, because Dr Murray over-ruled the paramedics and demanded MJ be took to the hospital.   Paramedics dont stop trying to resusitate until death is called.   No one was prepared to make that call at the house.   Apparently the Paramedics wanted to, but Murray over-ruled them.  
Its standard practice to keep going with CPR like that, even if paramedics know there is no hope...  they keep going until a doctor rules the time of death.

About the open eyes...  eyes can open at the time of death.  It doesnt mean MJ was awake when he died...  he could have been under the anesthetic and asleep when he died..  but when the time came for his heart to stop and his lungs to stop breathing, his eyes would open as a matter of nature.


Maybe they don't all do it that way.  My mother had a heart attack and they worked on her at the house, while getting her into the ambulance.  I road in the front to the hospital.  They were not pumping her.  And yet, there was not a doctor there to declair her dead.  I was totally clueless at the time that she was acutally dead.

We stop doing CPR en route for a few reasons. Because she was transported, they wouldn't just stop doing CPR unless you had a good deal of time to the hospital and she didn't improve at all. As a result of the CPR and especially cardiac medications that are given, sometimes a pulse becomes present. This doesn't mean the person will survive, and it doesn't mean they won't become pulseless again. While they have a pulse, they won't be doing CPR. Recently I had a patient in refractory V fib. Essentially what was happening was she had no pulse, then had a pulse, then lost the pulse, then regained a pulse, then lost a pulse, and regained a pulse. I've actually had this happen on a fair amount of codes. Unfortunately, very few actually survive even if a pulse is regained. I've done CPR many, many times and have had less than a handful of patients survive. I'm so sorry for what happened to your Mom.
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Offline rayvyn

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Quote from: "Butterflyaway"
Yes the pic was fake, just like all of this is fake.

The purpose of the pic is that, it was presented as a real picture of MJ in the ambulance.  Now we have all this information being presented to us of what happened on that day as being real.

So they are saying that MJ was dead already; Yet they still took him to the hospital, and continued to work on him in the ambulance.  This suggests he wasn't dead.

His eyes and mouth were open. yet we have a pic suggesting otherwise. (However they could have very well closed his eyes and mouth)

They point i'm trying to make is that all the information we have already heard, is going to be contradicted by the information we are going to hear.  It's already happening; with not just this story, but with what Kai Chase said also.  

Kids not upstairs V.S Kids upstairs

And by the way; I'll leave you guys with this question.  Where was Blanket during all of this?


It's not unusual to continue CPR. It happened to my brother-in-law. Before they took him away in the ambulance, he was clearly not breathing. EMT still tried to revive him. Once he was at the ER, the doctor also tried reviving him, but to no avail. We lost a wonderful man that day.
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Offline vaudevillianveteran

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I don't quite understand this. The preliminary hearing are going on now. When is the actual trial happening? I dont understand how law/court stuff works at all. When will it end? Do we have a time line?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »