Timeline for Sleep

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Offline reading_on

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Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 09, 2011, 08:18:49 AM
This  statement from Kai Chase vs Conrad Murray's administration of medicines.

   Kai said that MJ would come down for breakfast, but Dr Murray said he was administering propofol after 10 AM. Why would MJ want to sleep that late? This is speculation on my part, but consider any insomniac that I have been in contact with (my husband is one). They do not want to go to sleep that late in the day, they just give up and try the following night.
The facts in this matter state that if Michael came downstairs for breakfast consistently in the morning AND he was a consistent insomniac like it was reported then he would have in times past ignored no sleep in favor continuing his daily routine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline puremind

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 09, 2011, 08:27:12 AM
also, i know propofol does not cause REAL sleep and you feel the same after so what was its use?
well, but we already know:)
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Offline loyalfan

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 09, 2011, 10:57:40 AM
is it me here,or does anyone else notice that things are unravelling before us in the last few days...????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline mjssoulmate

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 09, 2011, 01:25:03 PM
I remember Kai Chase saying that it was Murray who would come down to get Michael's breakfast, which was usually some juice she had prapared for him, and on June 25th that did not happen.  Murray didn't come to get the breakfast, and he didn't come down with the oxygen tanks either.  The first time she saw him that day was when he came yelling for Prince and security.

However, you are right in saying that it doesn't make much sense to want to go to sleep still at the time Murray supposedly administered Propofol.  Michael usually had lunch with his children, and then Travis Payne would come over to discuss the routine for rehearsal and then they would leave together to go to rehearsals.  It seems to me that if you are still awake close to lunch time you would just give up, since a couple hours of sleep sometimes has a worse effect than staying awake, especially since Propfol doesn't give you what is considered rejuvenating sleep. It can make you feel more groggy. He could have just canceled rehearsal for that day.
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Offline reading_on

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 10, 2011, 07:28:42 AM
Quote from: "mjssoulmate"
I remember Kai Chase saying that it was Murray who would come down to get Michael's breakfast, which was usually some juice she had prapared for him, and on June 25th that did not happen.  Murray didn't come to get the breakfast, and he didn't come down with the oxygen tanks either.  The first time she saw him that day was when he came yelling for Prince and security.

However, you are right in saying that it doesn't make much sense to want to go to sleep still at the time Murray supposedly administered Propofol.  Michael usually had lunch with his children, and then Travis Payne would come over to discuss the routine for rehearsal and then they would leave together to go to rehearsals.  It seems to me that if you are still awake close to lunch time you would just give up, since a couple hours of sleep sometimes has a worse effect than staying awake, especially since Propfol doesn't give you what is considered rejuvenating sleep. It can make you feel more groggy. He could have just canceled rehearsal for that day.

You are right, I didn't go back and fact check. It was Murray who came down, not Michael. Thanks for clearing that up. I hate when something that isn't correct keeps going..lol
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Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 10, 2011, 11:08:25 AM
I want to ask a question. Did anyone of you got operated? I did. The day of my operation they administered anesthesia, obviously. Now the side effect once you wake up you throw up. Anesthesia makes you throw up often, I was throwing up  2 3 days, and also being dizzy.  This is not only me, but all people who got operated has that side effect. I have a doctor friend who told me that this is a major side effect from propofol. If Michael has been administered propofol every night or day to sleep, wouldn't he be throwing up, and being groggy, and more tired? This does not sound justified. There is more than meets the eye. My scenario is, Michael never got home on June 25. There was an impersonator who really looked like Michael in his bed, whom was really really sick and did not mind to die. This was all a master plan from Michael, and Murray was part of the plan. Murray administered propofol to that impersonator, and he is the one who died. They removed the tapes so they had no evidence that, it was not the real MJ. Michael made his escape. He is the one who took his money and his jewelry. Just my opinion. I am 100% sure Michael never took propofol. Blessings to all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »


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Offline Billie J

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 10, 2011, 12:21:08 PM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
I want to ask a question. Did anyone of you got operated? I did. The day of my operation they administered anesthesia, obviously. Now the side effect once you wake up you throw up. Anesthesia makes you throw up often, I was throwing up  2 3 days, and also being dizzy.  This is not only me, but all people who got operated has that side effect. I have a doctor friend who told me that this is a major side effect from propofol. If Michael has been administered propofol every night or day to sleep, wouldn't he be throwing up, and being groggy, and more tired? This does not sound justified. There is more than meets the eye. My scenario is, Michael never got home on June 25. There was an impersonator who really looked like Michael in his bed, whom was really really sick and did not mind to die. This was all a master plan from Michael, and Murray was part of the plan. Murray administered propofol to that impersonator, and he is the one who died. They removed the tapes so they had no evidence that, it was not the real MJ. Michael made his escape. He is the one who took his money and his jewelry. Just my opinion. I am 100% sure Michael never took propofol. Blessings to all.

The thing is that: the amount propofol that "Dr" conrad murray gave mike, would make him sleep for 10 minutes. And the amount they gave you under your operation, must have been taken more than 10 minutes.
I don't think I ever heard of a operation how took only 10 minutes.
So how groggy do you get after only "sleeping" for 10 minutes?? And how good are your body's co-ordinations after 10 minutes with propofol in your blood???
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Offline puremind

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 10, 2011, 12:53:59 PM
I agree with all it's been said. What i don't understand is why such a bad script , i mean didn't they know that these were questions for anyone at some point? you pull a hoax like this but you ignore some obvious things like this...i find it hard to believe. i think there has to be something in between this hoax and what really happened.
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Offline MJonmind

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 10, 2011, 01:54:19 PM
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_catheterization

How all the people involved in this coverup can do so with a straight face is beyond me. With all the years building up in the news that MJ was so weird, drug addicted, a pedofile, a fool with money--well then the public will put reason aside and buy this story. We saw his rehearsals where the night before he put on a breathtaking performance--voice and body moves. We heard Paris talking of how her Dad cooked the best of breakfasts, well you don't make them in the afternoon.  The years after the 2005 trial we've seen clips of him in Bahrain and Ireland with his kids, making deals, walking with his kids, creating music, out with beautiful ladies, eating and drinking healthy food, planning a major come-back to the world. Naa-aa....

Hoaxwise, If there was a high chance that the 3 kids were in close proximity to his bedroom, would they bring in a dead body at all, much less one that looked just like their Dad (nightmarish). Either the kids were at some other house or the body was only introduced in another hidden ambulance, not in the house at all. The bit about the hot temperature in the bedroom might be just for incriminating Murray.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 10, 2011, 02:40:04 PM
Quote from: "Billie J"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
I want to ask a question. Did anyone of you got operated? I did. The day of my operation they administered anesthesia, obviously. Now the side effect once you wake up you throw up. Anesthesia makes you throw up often, I was throwing up  2 3 days, and also being dizzy.  This is not only me, but all people who got operated has that side effect. I have a doctor friend who told me that this is a major side effect from propofol. If Michael has been administered propofol every night or day to sleep, wouldn't he be throwing up, and being groggy, and more tired? This does not sound justified. There is more than meets the eye. My scenario is, Michael never got home on June 25. There was an impersonator who really looked like Michael in his bed, whom was really really sick and did not mind to die. This was all a master plan from Michael, and Murray was part of the plan. Murray administered propofol to that impersonator, and he is the one who died. They removed the tapes so they had no evidence that, it was not the real MJ. Michael made his escape. He is the one who took his money and his jewelry. Just my opinion. I am 100% sure Michael never took propofol. Blessings to all.

The thing is that: the amount propofol that "Dr" conrad murray gave mike, would make him sleep for 10 minutes. And the amount they gave you under your operation, must have been taken more than 10 minutes.
I don't think I ever heard of a operation how took only 10 minutes.
So how groggy do you get after only "sleeping" for 10 minutes?? And how good are your body's co-ordinations after 10 minutes with propofol in your blood???

My operation lasted 1 hr. Why would someone take propofol for 10 mins. What rest did you have in 10 mins?? Does not make sense
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »


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Offline MichiS97

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 10, 2011, 02:42:17 PM
Quote from: "loyalfan"
is it me here,or does anyone else notice that things are unravelling before us in the last few days...????
I think we are moving fast towards the end :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Heartsong

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:56:07 AM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_catheterization

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...
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Offline Billie J

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 08:58:50 AM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "Billie J"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
I want to ask a question. Did anyone of you got operated? I did. The day of my operation they administered anesthesia, obviously. Now the side effect once you wake up you throw up. Anesthesia makes you throw up often, I was throwing up  2 3 days, and also being dizzy.  This is not only me, but all people who got operated has that side effect. I have a doctor friend who told me that this is a major side effect from propofol. If Michael has been administered propofol every night or day to sleep, wouldn't he be throwing up, and being groggy, and more tired? This does not sound justified. There is more than meets the eye. My scenario is, Michael never got home on June 25. There was an impersonator who really looked like Michael in his bed, whom was really really sick and did not mind to die. This was all a master plan from Michael, and Murray was part of the plan. Murray administered propofol to that impersonator, and he is the one who died. They removed the tapes so they had no evidence that, it was not the real MJ. Michael made his escape. He is the one who took his money and his jewelry. Just my opinion. I am 100% sure Michael never took propofol. Blessings to all.

The thing is that: the amount propofol that "Dr" conrad murray gave mike, would make him sleep for 10 minutes. And the amount they gave you under your operation, must have been taken more than 10 minutes.
I don't think I ever heard of a operation how took only 10 minutes.
So how groggy do you get after only "sleeping" for 10 minutes?? And how good are your body's co-ordinations after 10 minutes with propofol in your blood???

My operation lasted 1 hr. Why would someone take propofol for 10 mins. What rest did you have in 10 mins?? Does not make sense

You are so right,why would someone take propofol for 10 minutes of sleep??well, they are desperate for any sleep at all.
Think about it:be awake most of night,would make any desperate for  any sleep.But I know we don't have to worry because,Nothing about Mike's "death" make any sense at all!!  :mrgreen:
And I think that this is the whole idea of this HOAX, that nothing make sense at all.NOTHING!
The media has gotten all lot of "fact" of mike "death", that doesn't make any sense.But they can't do anything,maybe they are afraid to be a laughing stock. Becuase mike fool them,hugely!!!! ha ha ha :mrgreen:
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Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 09:01:59 AM
Quote from: "Billie J"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "Billie J"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
I want to ask a question. Did anyone of you got operated? I did. The day of my operation they administered anesthesia, obviously. Now the side effect once you wake up you throw up. Anesthesia makes you throw up often, I was throwing up  2 3 days, and also being dizzy.  This is not only me, but all people who got operated has that side effect. I have a doctor friend who told me that this is a major side effect from propofol. If Michael has been administered propofol every night or day to sleep, wouldn't he be throwing up, and being groggy, and more tired? This does not sound justified. There is more than meets the eye. My scenario is, Michael never got home on June 25. There was an impersonator who really looked like Michael in his bed, whom was really really sick and did not mind to die. This was all a master plan from Michael, and Murray was part of the plan. Murray administered propofol to that impersonator, and he is the one who died. They removed the tapes so they had no evidence that, it was not the real MJ. Michael made his escape. He is the one who took his money and his jewelry. Just my opinion. I am 100% sure Michael never took propofol. Blessings to all.

The thing is that: the amount propofol that "Dr" conrad murray gave mike, would make him sleep for 10 minutes. And the amount they gave you under your operation, must have been taken more than 10 minutes.
I don't think I ever heard of a operation how took only 10 minutes.
So how groggy do you get after only "sleeping" for 10 minutes?? And how good are your body's co-ordinations after 10 minutes with propofol in your blood???

My operation lasted 1 hr. Why would someone take propofol for 10 mins. What rest did you have in 10 mins?? Does not make sense

You are so right,why would someone take propofol for 10 minutes of sleep??well, they are desperate for any sleep at all.
Think about it:be awake most of night,would make any desperate for  any sleep.But I know we don't have to worry because,Nothing about Mike's "death" make any sense at all!!  :mrgreen:
And I think that this is the whole idea of this HOAX, that nothing make sense at all.NOTHING!
The media has gotten all lot of "fact" of mike "death", that doesn't make any sense.But they can't do anything,maybe they are afraid to be a laughing stock. Becuase mike fool them,hugely!!!! ha ha ha :mrgreen:

Exactly he fooled everyone, even his fans. He is a genius. I hope this will end soon.
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Offline vup

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 09:38:17 AM
He didn't fool anyone. He had to be safe from his murderers who saw in Michael only MONEY. Stop thinking everything is about you in his life. Family first. Fans after. Deal with it.
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Offline reading_on

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 10:36:02 AM
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_catheterization

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Datroot

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:25:25 PM
If Propofol was only going to be used for 10 mins, what was the point of MJ using it to sleep?  Surely he would have wanted to sleep for longer than 10 mins.
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Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 03:49:20 PM
Quote from: "vup"
He didn't fool anyone. He had to be safe from his murderers who saw in Michael only MONEY. Stop thinking everything is about you in his life. Family first. Fans after. Deal with it.


What do you mean it is about me or us fans in his life. We have never said that. We are simply trying to figure out this propofol thingy.. Now you deal with it capisce my friend.
capisce in italian means UNDERSTAND. I am a fan since Michael started to sing, He is only 2 yrs older than I. I am concerned just like you are. I know family comes first I have one. Maybe he did not have any murderers, how about that, maybe he was fed up of everything around him. Maybe he did not want to do the 50 concerts and he desapeared. Nobody knows only He does.. Once he will come back everything will be explained.
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Offline reading_on

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 06:10:58 PM
Quote from: "vup"
He didn't fool anyone. He had to be safe from his murderers who saw in Michael only MONEY. Stop thinking everything is about you in his life. Family first. Fans after. Deal with it.

 I don't know who thought the way you are saying. I mean, some people might have thought that they deserved more attention, but I am certainly not one of them. I didn't even get to see him in concert, which I kick myself now for it. I should have.
  I have always been a good and loyal fan of his music and showmanship, but I have always known he is just a man that and his family is whole other world and of course, most certainly it comes first.
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Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 10:49:22 PM
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "vup"
He didn't fool anyone. He had to be safe from his murderers who saw in Michael only MONEY. Stop thinking everything is about you in his life. Family first. Fans after. Deal with it.

 I don't know who thought the way you are saying. I mean, some people might have thought that they deserved more attention, but I am certainly not one of them. I didn't even get to see him in concert, which I kick myself now for it. I should have.
  I have always been a good and loyal fan of his music and showmanship, but I have always known he is just a man that and his family is whole other world and of course, most certainly it comes first.

=@reading_on dont be too hard on yourself. Tell you the truth Ihave never seen Michael's concert either. I know he came several times in Montreal to do concerts, but since I come from an Italian family, which are very stricted. In that era I did not have the liberty as my children have today. Today it is a different era. You should never regret what happened in the past you just move on. Michael is not dead, and you will have more opportunities. God Bless.
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Offline Heartsong

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 11, 2011, 11:11:52 PM
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_catheterization

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 12, 2011, 04:58:09 AM
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_catheterization

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...

If you are asleep for 10 mins with propofol  you do not need a catheter. I spoke to my friend doctor and he told me that a catheter is put to a patient who cannot get up , eg: a patient who got operated, they put catheter for  a while. A patient who is terminally ill who cannot get up anymore . For 10 ,mins he did not need it. He finds this so strange that no one  in court is looking at this into depth. They have so  many medical people being asked question in court not even one came close to finding out more information. He told me they are making a mokery of medicine and a mokery of the law.  Sorry but these are his words. First off he also told me, did they examine the catheter? DNA testing, you know you can find out a DNA with urine, who did it belong to? I think this would have been the first thing to do.  if they would test it at this moment, the results wouldn't be conclusive. He said this catheter and propofol was not MIchael's, He also stated that maybe there was also morphine in the IV to numb the pain of the terminally ill person. Which they probably never found out or they keeping it a secret. Blessings
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »


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Offline reading_on

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 12, 2011, 08:03:48 AM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_catheterization

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...

If you are asleep for 10 mins with propofol  you do not need a catheter. I spoke to my friend doctor and he told me that a catheter is put to a patient who cannot get up , eg: a patient who got operated, they put catheter for  a while. A patient who is terminally ill who cannot get up anymore . For 10 ,mins he did not need it. He finds this so strange that no one  in court is looking at this into depth. They have so  many medical people being asked question in court not even one came close to finding out more information. He told me they are making a mokery of medicine and a mokery of the law.  Sorry but these are his words. First off he also told me, did they examine the catheter? DNA testing, you know you can find out a DNA with urine, who did it belong to? I think this would have been the first thing to do.  if they would test it at this moment, the results wouldn't be conclusive. He said this catheter and propofol was not MIchael's, He also stated that maybe there was also morphine in the IV to numb the pain of the terminally ill person. Which they probably never found out or they keeping it a secret. Blessings


These are all good points and I myself was not looking deep enough. The catheter is in place for people on the drip, that are going to be asleep for extended periods. I would not call a few hours extended enough. But do we have any reports about the catheter being in when they reached the house? I thought this was after the fact, and if that is true they may have inserted one at the hospital to try and drain urine for testing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 12, 2011, 12:17:01 PM
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_catheterization

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...

If you are asleep for 10 mins with propofol  you do not need a catheter. I spoke to my friend doctor and he told me that a catheter is put to a patient who cannot get up , eg: a patient who got operated, they put catheter for  a while. A patient who is terminally ill who cannot get up anymore . For 10 ,mins he did not need it. He finds this so strange that no one  in court is looking at this into depth. They have so  many medical people being asked question in court not even one came close to finding out more information. He told me they are making a mokery of medicine and a mokery of the law.  Sorry but these are his words. First off he also told me, did they examine the catheter? DNA testing, you know you can find out a DNA with urine, who did it belong to? I think this would have been the first thing to do.  if they would test it at this moment, the results wouldn't be conclusive. He said this catheter and propofol was not MIchael's, He also stated that maybe there was also morphine in the IV to numb the pain of the terminally ill person. Which they probably never found out or they keeping it a secret. Blessings


These are all good points and I myself was not looking deep enough. The catheter is in place for people on the drip, that are going to be asleep for extended periods. I would not call a few hours extended enough. But do we have any reports about the catheter being in when they reached the house? I thought this was after the fact, and if that is true they may have inserted one at the hospital to try and drain urine for testing.

They found the catheter at home. If they had insert at the hospital that is another catheter , not the same one.. This does not add up at all. Like I said my doctor friend feels in a twilight zone, :lol:  he said how can this be possible. Someone who cannot sleep they administer propofol.He also stated administering 10 mins does not kill anyone, even if they administer it every night. YOur body will fall asleep, but when the 10 mins are up the person wakes up, he is not sleeping anymore, they feel groggy. So what benefit did this propofol do to Michael? Nothing.  There are so many other things that really works to fall asleep.  I told him if he has time ( since he is always so busy) to give me a list of medicine Michael could have taken to fall asleep. Again this propofol thing does not add up at all. Blessings
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »


I'm happy to be alive, I'm happy to be who I am.
Michael Jackson

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Re: Timeline for Sleep

  • on: January 12, 2011, 07:30:29 PM
Even my mother, who worked in the Red Cross (almost like a nurse), when she heard this story, said it does not make sense to give propofol for sleeping, there are many healthy ways to combat insomnia. I believe that Michael, who is a healthy and clever man, in any case would never have taken the propofol.
 But I do not think that anyone died in his place that day.

 Blessings
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »