Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

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Offline _Anna_

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Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:42:37 PM
People vs. Dr. Conrad Murray
22 minutes ago by TMZ Staff  
 
Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story




A doctor for the L.A. County Coroner's Office testified he doesn't believe Dr. Murray only gave Michael Jackson 25mg of Propofol.

Without saying Murray lied to cops during his interview two days after MJ died, Dr. Christopher Rogers testified if Murray were correct about the 25mg of Propofol, Jackson would have awakened after 3 to 5 minutes of sleep.

Rogers also testified he doesn't believe Jackson swallowed Propofol.  The defense laid the groundwork for this theory yesterday, because small amounts of the drug were found in Jackson's stomach.

And Rogers said he believes it's inappropriate to use Propofol for insomnia and that Murray's care was "substandard."

http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/04/michael-j ... fol-death/
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Offline Truth_or_Dare

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:44:16 PM
Quote
Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story
Nobody does  :lol:
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Offline GINAFELICIA

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:52:04 PM
Michael would have been awaken after 3-5 minutes? I don't know much about medicine but this sounds strange...

OK, I guess we should say big thank you to TMZ for this title today on 1/11/2011.
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Offline GINAFELICIA

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:54:10 PM
Well I also can't see Michael swallowing propofol, not even with a cola.....my idol couldn't have done something so stupid
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Offline Tarja

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:56:11 PM
from my knowledge propofol is an anestethic that is used continuosly during a surgery. The patient is put  under constant injection of the anestethic during the surgery because it gets out of blood very quick,in a few minutes, and if it's not constantly injected the patient would wake up.

I don't know what to think about this
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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 01:59:05 PM
There really is no doctor on the face of this earth to clarify the propofol mistery once and for all?
How much propofol do you need to kill Michael Jackson?
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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:00:59 PM
Oh, if 25 ml would only put him to sleep for 3-5 minutes, then I guess if we inject a 100 ml vial to a person would put him to sleep  for 12-20 minutes?
Then what Murray did wrong?
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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:09:23 PM
Gina, you won't put a person to sleep longer if you overdose him. At least it's what I think. I said, from my knowlegde, continuosly injecting - as in transfusion- don't know how to explain it. You take, for example, 1 ml of propofol and you inject that 1 ml constantly at each 2-3 minutes and keep that  person under sleep the time you need. I don't know how right I am, I just explain what my logic tells me. I am not a doctor and either I know how these things function. I take them with my general knowlegde
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Offline Grace

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:13:49 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Then what Murray did wrong?

It was reported the stomach contained a dark liquid.
Doc Murray might have mistaken the prop for a Sloe Gin Fizz.
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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:14:07 PM
From a blog of someone that is in the court room.

Dr. Conrad Murray Prelim: Day 6 Part I

This is an unedited, draft entry. Please refer to the MSM (mainstream media) for 100% accuracy. If you are copying and pasting to other web sites before the edit, please be sure to include a link-back to this specific entry and this disclaimer with your copy. Thank you, Sprocket.

9:20 a.m. Pastor is on the bench but we don’t have sound.

Deputy calls for us to get sound.

The PIO states that if/when this goes to trial.

Sound. People call Dr. Rodgers to stand.

#21 Christpher Rogers Witness instruction.

Emoloyed LA Co coroner. position. Chief forensic medicine. Supervise doctors who work at coroner’s office, and occasionally do autopsies himself. Employed since 1988 as a forensic pathologist. Explains that job.

He determine the cause and manner of death in coroner’s cases and write reports.

Lists educational background.

How many autopsies have you performed or been invoved in?
I would estimate thousands.

Describes autopsy and purpose.
To determine cause and manner of death.

Did you perform the autopsy in this particular case in case? Yes. On June 26, 2009

2009`04415

Autopsy did show incedential findings however his overall health was excellent.

Prostate issue; vitillago, polop of the colon, inflammation and scaring of his lungs, and also had some arthritis of the spine.

He was 5’ 9” and 136 pounds.

What is BMI? Stands for body mass index. Often used to estimate if the person was in the normal weight range.

Was he a thin individual? Yes.
I thought his BMI was 20.1.
Where does that fall? That’s normal weight.

He did not have any abnormalities of the heart and he did not have any artherclerosis.

The vitality of his heart? He did not have any cardiac disease.

Did you observe and trauma or any natural disease that would have caused his death? No.

As part of your investigation as a medical dr in determining the cause of death, did you consider sources other than the observations of the body? Yes.

Did you review the transcript of Dr. M interview ? Yes.
Did you consult outside sources? Yes.
Did you review the toxicology reports of MJ time of death? Y

Based on your investigation, did you also se
ek out medical records of MJ in the months preceeding his death?

Did you or were you provided any medical records by Dr. M during this time of April May June 2009? No.

Based on phys autopsy and other resources you relied on ?
Manner of death?
Homicide.

Homicide based on what?
It was based primarily based on the info we had on the medical care MJ receded. The care was substandard.

And there were several actions that should have been taken and we don’t have any evidence that they were taken.

Such as.
1st would be physician should not use propofol as indicated. so the use of propofol was for insomnia
2nd when you give a drug such as propofol you have to be prepared for complications. Common, are, lowering of blood pressure, and you need to be prepared to treat that.
there can be difficulty in breathing and air way and have 2 be prep. to treat that via intubation.

The intubation

The Dr. left Mr. Jackson while he was anaesthetized. and that is something that you should not do.

Why shouldn't something you should not do.
Under anaesthesia, you have to have someone there quickly, so if there is some bad side effect you can (attend?) to it.

In determining that this was a homicide, did you determine cause of death.

Acute propolfol intoxication and benzodiazipine effect. The autopsy showed (mentions drugs. Mostly propofol but benzos in less amounts.)

Both benzos and propofol are ? medications. (

So, this combined effect, they combined and worked together to create heightened sedation.

Yes, I would expect in combination they would have produced heightened than by themselves.

Cross by Flanagan.

You conclusion as to this being a homicide, assumes the administration of propofol by another? Yes.

You’ve made several findings in your conclusion of you is it a fact, you indicated that certain that benzo was administered by another. yes.
and that propofol was administered outside a hospital setting? Yes.

Missed next q.

In your conclusion, situation doesn’t support self administration of self treatment of propofol? Yes.

Did you come across any factors that were inconsistent with your conclusions. No, I don’t believe so.

Dr. I want to refer you to, I believe you have it in your autopsy report, it might be the second to last page? Do you have that in front of you? Yes.
Did you use this page in informing your opinion ? Yes.

Asks info about the heart blood. 3.2 propofol and 6.8 lidocaine see that? Yes.

Now tell me, how do drugs get in to the heart blood?
Well, in this setting, propofol has to be administered intravenously, and so that blood circulates throughout the body.

Well I was asking generally. Well, there has to be some way to get in there. Through an IV or orally.

So, an injection? Yes. Iv? Yes. Orally, Yes.

Asks about the lorazapam in the heart blood. .162 lorazapam.

That’s a significant amount of lorazapam  isn’t it? Yes

It’s what we would call a therapeutic does? Yes.
So, someone who hadn’t built up a tolerance would be sleepy (?Y)
So that would be enough to put someone asleep as a sleeping aid isn’t it? Y

It’s not enough to kill someone is it? No, not by itself.

Asks about the proportions of propofol and lidocaine.
And then asks about the hospital blood.

Asks him to explain the differences in 4 to 1 and 8 to 1 ratio.
Explains that one of the things that propofol does is go.....? Not understanding. Sorry.

During resuscitation and during post mortem period, there is time for the propofol to move from circulation into the tissues.

Questions I miss.

Now moving onto the femoral blood questions and other substances and asking about the relationship of the ratios.

Asks why they test from different areas (heart, femoral).

From those tests the lorazopam was fairly consistently distributed throughout (?) Yes, you could conclude that.

Vitreous fluid question. He’s not sure why the toxicologist tested it.

The liver. You analyzed te liver, a 12 to 1 ratio, correct? Yes.

Is that why the liver captures more of the propofol and that’s where it’s metabolized? (short answer, yes; I don’t get the long answer.)

The liver might capture a little bit of it and keep it? Yes.
Gastric contents.

Gastric contents discovered by you during autopsy? Yes.
Those gastric contents, were those the 70 grams of dark fluid?

The dark fluid, how did you get that out of the stomach? At autopsy, I removed the stomach and used a ladle ....missed rest of answer.

Did you have an opinion as to what that dark fluid was? (miss)
You would have known if it was blood? Well, it’s difficult to tell the difference from digested blood.

Do you know if the fluid could have been fruit juice? It could have been.
It could have been beet juice or grape juice? (?)

I did not specifically ask them to analyze the stomach contents, but they did.

Ratio of propofol in stomach.
Two mechanisms for things to get in the stomach. If there is bleeding in the stomach. Another is that things, drugs, can come in from the stomach through adjacent organs.

Is there also anthoer method? Speaking of these particular substances, I think it is possible to take lidocaine orally, I don’t think you could take propofol orally.

Why can’t you take propofol orally?

Well, from my understanding you need to take it via IV.

But in the event that propofol were taken orally, that’s one way it could appear in the stomach? Yes, that’s a way it could appear in the stomach.

When popofol is taken in the vein, it causes a burning sensation, it’s very uncomfortable isn’t it? Yes.

So, usually it’s usually mixed with some lidocaine, or lidocaine is put in ahead of it isn’t it? Yes.

But, if propofol was taken orally, it would have caused pain in the oesophagus or stomach? I don’t know.

Miss question.

So, if like if propofol 4.5 to 1 , 8 to 1 and 3 to 1 and the rest of the body favored propofol over lidocaine, if the gastric contents came from the blood system, it would most likely favor propofol over the ????

I don’t know....( long explanation) Lidocaine could possibly be distributed in a different (indication?) than propofol.

Is it your info, propofol in it’s redistribution could go into that dark liquid in the stomach? It’s a possibility.

Also possibility, if propofol is taken orally, and lidocaine taken on top of it, is that also a possibility?
It is a possibility , although in this case the amount in the stomach is so small, they would have taken a small amount of propofal orally.

Propofol is a nasodialator? isn’t it? So it would have been absorbed quickly?

(miss answer)

So 150 ml of prop taken orally, and it caused a burning sensation, and it caused the need for some lidocane, for the esophagus, and stomach, you would have found that proportion in the stomach correct? (answer about rations.

Do you have an opinion about how much propool would have to be in the blood stream, to reach those blood levels? No, I would need to rely on a toxicologist to figure those levels out.

The levels (found) were very high levels? You would see that in someone who was under full anaesthesia? Asks about body weight.

I can’t speak to those (levels?)

You don’t know how anyone gets to anaesthesia with propofol (levels??) ? No, I don’t.

Asks about milligram per kilogram weight.

The recommended dose would be 2 milligrams per kilogram weight. ans.


It would depend on extent on how rapidly the propofol is given and over the length of time... (ans)..

25 mil would not get you to those levels. No, it wouldn’t

25 mil of propofol would be cleaned out of the system within in 10 to 20 minutes? That’s a likely yes.

So if the Dr. gave an injection of propofol of 25 mil, propofol acts really quickly doesn’t it? Yes, I would expect it would take effect within a minute of injection.

If no continuation, the person would wake up in xxx of minutes? (Yes?)

You read Dr. Murray’s statement as part of your, and you read that he gave 25 mg of propofol sometimes between

He never said he gave a drip did he? Well, my recollection of the statement is that he gave it over 25 minutes.. (more explanation)

But he never said he gave a drip, on that day? No, he didn’t.

Now, the 25 minutes, you’re relying on that transcription, Yes.

Now if it was 3 t0 5 minutes, and that was a transcription error, you would expect for the patient to wake up? Obj sustained.

Now arguing over whether to play the transcript and then bring the doctor back.

Now wants to ask the Dr. a hypothetical.

JP In order to do that, we have to have facts in evidence.

DW: Counsel has had the transcript in evidence for months now.

EC: If we can’t ask the hypothetical, then, we’ll have to play the tape.

JP: then, where’s the audio.

I’d like to ask him a hypothetical with facts that I think we can prove up.

DW: I don’t know how to respond. (more)

I’ll allow the question to be asked based on good faith, and subject ot motion to strike.

IF Dr M gave a 25 mil of propofol, over a period of three to five minutes, you would expect it to produce sleep. I would think it would produce sleep.

And the sleep would be very short lived wouldn’t it? Yes.

And then sleep would no longer be produced... Yes, I think that would be correct.

In the event a person were to wake up, after 5 ten minutes, and ingest enough proopfol... first of all stomach ingestion is only about 3/4 effective at IV? Oral medication is the same mill dose, is only about 3/4 effective in the stomach as to an IV.

Based on propofol needs to be given via IV I’m not sure what would happen.

So there are not a lot of studies on it right? No.

So if you had a totally untrained person, such as MJ, you would expect it to be absorbed into the blood stream wouldn’t it? I don’t now if it would be digested or absorbed.

Questions about ingesting lidocaine, you would expect that to appear in the stomach? (Yes?)

Asks questions about ratio in the blood stream.
I’m not sure what would come out of the blood stream.

And if this is the hypothetical, of ingestion of propofol by the decedent, and ingestion of lidocaine, by the decedent, this would not be a homicide?

I would think it would still be a homicide. Based on the quality of the medical of care, I would still consider it a homicide even if the Dr. did not give the propofol,

Just the fact that there was propofol there in the first place. This is not the accepted setting to administer propofol in the first place.

He was not prepared for any adverse effects.

You think the Dr. should be ? for ?

have you ever seen where a patient self administered propofol? I have seen one case? And that was a Dr/ Yes.

Are you aware of one in LA county? I believe there is at lest one, I’m not sure whether it was in LA county or not. I know I heard of a case in???

When that nurse self administered propofol, did you call it a homicide? obj sustained.

Asks about anaesthesiologist consultation. Answered a question, could the decedent have given propofol himself, and based on that (ans?) you stated the death homicide. Yes.

She concluded (aneth. name I missed) the propofol could not have been self administered, due to the configuration of the IV set up.

The IV catheter was in the left leg. Yes. Do you know where it was? It was a little bit above the knee.

Asks about where the IV was in the body, the IV port next to the knee?

Depends on where the tubing was configured (ans).

Question, question, about the tubing from the leg and where how far the port is from the knee.

In the anes. explaining the difficulty of the IV set up, she goes onto explain how difficult and what position he would have to had been in a particular position.

How difficult would it have been for him to reach his knee area? Obj sust.
Would you say that that area, would make it very difficult to use the port at that Y area.?
It’s not to difficult to touch your ankle, you can touch your ankle in bed can’t you? Well, for some people.

You just bend your leg don’t you?

Questions about how difficult it would have been for someone, not medically trained to start an IV.

In order for Mr J to administer the propofol himself. Certain things have to happen. The dr had to stop the drug. Then he has to leave. and Mr. J has to wake up. and you have to be sufficiently aware to be in some way to press the ? into the syringe...

Dr. told us he was in the bathroom for a very short time. and so could have all of those things happen in such a short time.

And you’ve come across facts that the doctor was on the phone... for about 40 minutes.

Never considered that he was on the phone for 30 minutes. No.
Or the phone call to the lady in Texas? no.
Or you would agree, if the patient was kept asleep and the only propofol given the patient was 25 mil then you would expect the patient to be awake in 5 minutes? Yes.

And after that five minutes, certainly within 20 minutes, he wouldn’t be under the influence of propofol. “Less likely.”

So there’s basically is two possibilities of self administration. is IV and orally. Yes.

The gastric contents tends to support the oral assumption. No, I don’t think the gastric contents support that. He mentions the small amount in the stomach.

How big is a micro-gram compared to a milligram. A micro-gram is one thousands of a milligram.

The 1.6 of lidocaine that would be 1600 micro-grams wouldn’t it. Thats correct.

and 1600 in those stomach contents is way more than any organ that was tested? I couldn’t say that. the 1.6 pertains to the entire stomach and the other refers to the.... miss rest of answer.

I can’t keep up.

Now going over ratios again. Sheesh.

I take a break. My fingers are tired.

A: The idea of someone taking 1.6 mg of lidocaine, I mean, that’s such a small amount.

Now goes over prior testimony with the coroner... testimony from the paramedics who thought MJ coded 1/2 hour before there arrival. And we have comments about the interrupted phone call...

Flanagan, is he rambling?

????

I’m just stopping typing now. He’s asking about space of time, etc.

Coroner goes over his notes of the Dr. statement to detectives. He reads from that.

Now, in event that you get propofol that you get to the blood levels you see here, you would anticipate a rapid onset of sleep, deep sleep , you would expect a rapid onset wouldn’t you? Yes.

When we say rapid onset, what would you say that is. Well, rapid onset of (administer?) you would see within about a minute.

Now asking about the 2 milligrams per kilogram of weight.

I can’t take it anymore. My brain is hurting.

Even at those levels, that would quickly metabolize wouldn’t it? If taken in those ? you would expect (wake up)? ?? I’ve got this wrong.

Yes assuming his breathing was not supported. (ans to q I missed)

So, unless the Dr. left within 2 minutes, you’d see the patient stop breathing. But if MJ ingested (?) when Dr. is out of the room...

REDIRECT.

A large portion of Mr. F questions was on the assumption that the dosage that MJ received was 25 mg.

Well, what Im asking about the dosage, that was based on Dr. M statement. And one option is that’s not an accurate accounting of what Dr. Murray gave him. (correct?)

Hypothetical, that Dr. Murray was giving MJ propofol every night for weeks, for insomnia, ...I don’t get it all....

Let’s assume that Dr. left him alone with the patient and the patient self administered, (snip; I don’t get the full hypothetical) you would still (rule it a homicide based on the standard of care.) Yes.

Recross Flanagan

The evidence that Dr. M gave him 25 mil is his statement and you have to conclued that don’t you? Yes.

If MJ was given 150 mil. that would produce sleep within a minutes. yes, and he would also wake up from that unless he died wouldn’t he? Yes.

So, even if Dr. Murray gave more than 25 mg between 1040 and 10:50 we still have the same result that MJ would be awake at 11 o'clock?

Yes, assuming there was a single dose.

And that he would also be dead by 11 o'clock? ???

But when propofol wears off, you’re somewhat fully recovered aren’t you? (I think answer is yes???)

And somehow, if it’s according to the paramedics Mr J dies around noon or just before, these are the levels that would probably be in his system at autopsy, Yes, and those levels couldn’t possibly have come from a 10 40 or 10 50 injection?

No redirect.

Break now return 11 am.
http://http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-6-part-i.html
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Offline paula-c

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:17:51 PM
Quote
Truth_or_Dare wrote:

Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's StoryNobody does


It is true nobody can believe all that, first that Michael to inject to if same, now that to drink the propofol, that madness!

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:18:33 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
There really is no doctor on the face of this earth to clarify the propofol mistery once and for all?
How much propofol do you need to kill Michael Jackson?

Each person reacts individually to the levels of propofol needed. in any case, too much of it will cause you to stop breathing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline MJonmind

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:23:22 PM
And just look at MJ lookin at us with, hey do you guys believe that? Tell me no! :lol:

Quote
GINAFELICIA wrote:
How much propofol do you need to kill Michael Jackson?
You simply can't. He's invincible!
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Offline GINAFELICIA

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 02:45:30 PM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
And just look at MJ lookin at us with, hey do you guys believe that? Tell me no! :lol:

Quote
GINAFELICIA wrote:
How much propofol do you need to kill Michael Jackson?
You simply can't. He's invincible!

Invincible to propofol.... because he was already intoxicated with Cola..... MJ looks more and more like Rasputin - invincible to poisens....
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Offline suspicious mind

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 03:39:14 PM
what would be the purpose of going to all of the trouble for 5mins of sleep :roll:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars? Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. They'll believe anything you say, because you're a reporter. But if I, Michael Jackson, were to say, "I'm an alien from Mars and I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight," people would say, "Oh, man, that Michael Jackson is nuts. He's cracked up. You can't believe a single word that comes out of his mouth."

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 03:51:12 PM
Yes Gina, that Rasputin story is fascinating!

Thanks SD for posting this.
Quote
Based on propofol needs to be given via IV I’m not sure what would happen.

So there are not a lot of studies on it right? No.

So if you had a totally untrained person, such as MJ, you would expect it to be absorbed into the blood stream wouldn’t it? I don’t now if it would be digested or absorbed.
Now how is prosecuting going to get around this? It's going to be interesting.
Dr. Rodgers says MJ's overall health was excellent, no heart condition, 5'9", 136 lbs., normal weight. Would someone constantly sleep deprived (to the point of desperation of taking deadly drugs) be in good health? No way this is some hospice patient waiting out days/weeks for death.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline bonita

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 03:55:22 PM
Now, HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING;

What about other cases where people have died from from overdose on propofol?  :roll:
Michael couldn't have been the only one right? AND what similarities would there be to MJ's case? I bet there aren't many. But I'm going to investigate this online. :?:  :?:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline suspicious mind

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 03:58:18 PM
it is so strange to me that we have heard not a peep from any anesthesiologist .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves."  




Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars? Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. They'll believe anything you say, because you're a reporter. But if I, Michael Jackson, were to say, "I'm an alien from Mars and I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight," people would say, "Oh, man, that Michael Jackson is nuts. He's cracked up. You can't believe a single word that comes out of his mouth."

Offline bonita

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 03:59:25 PM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
it is so strange to me that we have heard not a peep from any anesthesiologist .
:!: SO TRUE  :!:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline scorpionchik

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Re: Coroner Doesn't Believe Dr. Murray's Story

  • on: January 11, 2011, 04:58:35 PM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
it is so strange to me that we have heard not a peep from any anesthesiologist .

Right, no anesthesiologist opinion. NOTHING ABOUT TAPES, NO QUESTION HOW ROGER IDENTIFIED BODY.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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