Oprah to reveal "Family Secret" / Major Reunion on Monday

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Offline MissG

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Quote from: "~Souza~"
It's something we don't know because we simply don't know the Jacksons
Agree 100%
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if I am honest, their reason would be their reason and none of my business.
Same here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
Marlon and Brandon would be the  6th & 7th children out of 10.
Michael was born after Marlon and then there was Randy and Janet.
Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, these are facts
Yes, and?
Still, Brandon is something new.

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It simply doesn't make any sense that the entire Jackson family would have hidden a twin away since birth or lied about Brandon's passing.
Makes no sense to you, but your prisma view is just yours Pauline.

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There has been no evidence posted that there is anything factual as the basis to this "theory". Nor have those proposing this theory, ever provided any credible reasons as to why the family would have hidden a twin or lied about Brandon's death. Without substantiating evidence, this theory has no support, no basis in fact, nothing to stand on.
Credible reason for who? you?
What about your research on MJ=Messiah? Credible reasons? A theory supported? on what basis then?
That Michael wanted to protay himself as "something" does not mean he is that "something". Just as an example.

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If a theory can not stand up to scrutiny than that theory must be revised. If a theory has no factual basis, than it is a factual error. If the theory is based on an error of reasoning, than it is a fallacy. Either way, it is not supported and therefore must be either revised or discarded.
People are having views and opinions, wow, you are taking this too serious  :?

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An argument consists of one or more premises and one conclusion. A premise is a statement (a sentence that is either true or false) that is offered in support of the claim being made, which is the conclusion (which is also a sentence that is either true or false).

There are two main types of arguments

The lesson is appreciated  :roll: , however, I don´t think that people are here to be teach about how to build up or approach or use an argument academically.
Opinions are opinions based on perception and experience as well, and there are no rules on what glasses people should wear to have just an opinion.

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A fallacy
Could be, but really, who cares!?
Freedom of expression is the key and as far as I could see, no one is being disrespectful. Why so defensive on this matter?  :shock:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "mjkate"
i am not saying there was a twin but i am not saying there wasn`t either. I think this is a perfect example of things that go on that people manage to keep hidden for years if they want to badly enough

Well, that thought is going around for many of us  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "~Souza~"
My point is that there are no valid arguments or proof against it as well. No one has birth certificates, no one was there when the twins were born, and this whole death of MJ is a lie, so who says other things are not? My point is that we simply do not know and therefore can not debunk that theory, nor confirm it.

I agree, but  also I got a question. Would a stillborn have a birth certificate on the 1st place? We are talking about the 50´s.
Also a religious family within a particular cult were life is higly respected from the conception. When Brandon was born, he should have had a proper burrial/ cremation and prayers in accordance with their beliefs, even if was a fetus.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "RK"
People have been known to shelter family members with disabilities from public scrutiny. They can be very protective of those members. I'm not saying this is so, I'm just saying there may be justification if indeed Brandon did not die as we were led to believe and I would understand that.

Agree as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
I am not trying to argue with you or anyone else, I see things differently on the whole twin/doubles theory and no evidence has been provided to change my mind. If there is irrefutable evidence that supports such claims than I will accept that but so far, that isn't and hasn't been the case.

I don´t see it as anyone wanting to change your mind  :) The theories are there and is up to you to go for them or not. Even if would be a 100% proof, still the responsability in believing whatever is on you, and I am totally ok with it concerning you or any others  :)

I could not predict that you would get this upset for the comment about Brandon :lol:, and I just want to let you know that was not my intention to raise your blood pressure about this subject   :P
and.....

I stand my ground regarding Brandon ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline SoldierofLOVE

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I liked that Oprah became very emotional in talking about her new-found sister and the way Patricia conducted herself.  Oprah said she's always dealt with people who ultimately betrayed her until Patricia.   I hope Patricia stays strong.

Now you know how Michael feels, Oprah!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MissG

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Patricia was very sure that Oprah was her half sister. What i don´t have clear is if Oprah agreed openly to take a test or how the process went. I just saw the video posted in TMZ and is very short.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Serenitys_Dream

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Quote from: "Serenity_Dreams"
There has been no evidence posted that there is anything factual as the basis to this "theory". Nor have those proposing this theory, ever provided any credible reasons as to why the family would have hidden a twin or lied about Brandon's death. Without substantiating evidence, this theory has no support, no basis in fact, nothing to stand on.
Quote from: "Gema"
Credible reason for who? you?
What about your research on MJ=Messiah? Credible reasons? A theory supported? on what basis then?
That Michael wanted to protay himself as "something" does not mean he is that "something". Just as an example.
I never said that Michael IS the messiah. I have not stated whether I believe that or not.
I said that the message, I received, was that Michael said he was the messiah.
This means that he believes he is and I investigated whether there was evidence to support that he believed such a thing and there was lots including Shmuley's statements, artwork, lyrics, symbolism etc.
So I have shown that he has portrayed himself as the messiah not that he is the messiah. That is something that can not be proven by me or anyone else and it is supported by credible, factual, evidence.

Quote from: "Serenity_Dreams"
If a theory can not stand up to scrutiny than that theory must be revised. If a theory has no factual basis, than it is a factual error. If the theory is based on an error of reasoning, than it is a fallacy. Either way, it is not supported and therefore must be either revised or discarded.
Quote from: "Gema"
People are having views and opinions, wow, you are taking this too serious  :?
No, I simply showing how the twin/doubles theory has no basis in fact.

Quote from: "Serenity_Dreams"
An argument consists of one or more premises and one conclusion. A premise is a statement (a sentence that is either true or false) that is offered in support of the claim being made, which is the conclusion (which is also a sentence that is either true or false). There are two main types of arguments
Quote from: "Gema"
The lesson is appreciated  :roll: , however, I don´t think that people are here to be teach about how to build up or approach or use an argument academically.
Opinions are opinions based on perception and experience as well, and there are no rules on what glasses people should wear to have just an opinion.
This was again about the theory itself being a fallacy and not about personal opinions. It has nothing to do with anything personal or opinions, it is the twin/doubles theory which is flawed and can't stand up to scrutiny.

Quote from: "Serenity_Dreams"
A fallacy
Quote from: "Gema"
Could be, but really, who cares!?
Freedom of expression is the key and as far as I could see, no one is being disrespectful. Why so defensive on this matter?  :shock:
Of course everyone is free to express themselves but so am I. When a theory has no basis in fact, when it can not be supported by evidence than it is not a valid theory. If people want to believe in a theory that is full of holes and more fantasy than fact, that is fine but I am free to point out the flaws in such theories.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 02:20:19 PM by Serenitys_Dream »

Serenitys_Dream

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Quote from: "Gema"
I agree, but  also I got a question. Would a stillborn have a birth certificate on the 1st place? We are talking about the 50´s.
Birth & Death Certificates were not issued for stillborn babies in the 1950's in the US. Around the year 2000, new legislation was introduced in some states and they started issuing certificates for the stillborn child, if parents requested them.

A Move for Birth Certificates for Stillborn Babies
By TAMAR LEWIN Published: May 22, 2007

...joined with others who had experienced stillbirth to push California legislators to pass a bill allowing parents to receive a certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth.

In the last six years, 19 states, including New Jersey, have enacted laws allowing parents who have had stillbirths to get such certificates. Similar legislation is under consideration in several more, among them New York. More than 25,000 pregnancies a year end in stillbirth, generally defined as a naturally occurring, unintentional intrauterine death after more than 20 weeks of gestation. A cause for the death is usually not determined.

To thousands of parents who have experienced stillbirth, getting a birth certificate is passionately important, albeit symbolic.

But politically, the birth-certificate laws, often referred to as “Missing Angels” bills, occupy uncertain territory, skirting the abortion debate while implicitly raising the question of fetal personhood.

Many antiabortion groups say the laws fill a need for parents. But some abortion rights supporters see the push for these laws as a barely disguised political move to undermine abortion rights.

In some states, local chapters of abortion rights groups have opposed the legislation. But at the national level, some abortion rights groups are comfortable with the laws, if they are drafted carefully to cover naturally occurring fetal death and not late-term abortion.

Last month, Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico vetoed legislation that would have granted stillborn birth certificates. Mr. Richardson, a Democrat who is running for president, did not mention abortion, but said “confusion and potential fraud” could result from creating two documents — the fetal death certificate and the birth certificate resulting in stillbirth — for the same event.

Those who support the stillbirth certificates say fraud would be impossible because the certificates make clear that there is no living child.

Generally, the bills are retroactive, so parents can get a certificate even for long-ago stillbirths. Parents who request certificates must pay a small fee, and can record a name or leave the name line blank.

Some counselors who work with grieving parents say the legislation would be unnecessary if hospitals did more to recognize the loss, through informal “memory certificates.”
http://http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/us/22stillbirth.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

US Vital Statistics did not keep records of stillbirths either because they were not live births and birth certificates were only issued for "live births".
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 02:22:18 PM by Serenitys_Dream »

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
No, I simply showing how the twin/doubles theory has no basis in fact.
But you jump to the theories posted on the forum when the argument is about an open opinion regarding "Brandon", not a theory.

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This was again about the theory itself being a fallacy and not about personal opinions. It has nothing to do with anything personal or opinions, it is the twin/doubles theory which is flawed and can't stand up to scrutiny.

My comment about Brandon was not pointing towards any double to start with.

The theories regarding doubles in TII can be flawed in your opinion but to the eye, those "michaels" look very different to each other and there is a possibility that doubles were used, as Joe also pointed to.


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Of course everyone is free to express themselves but so am I
And you do it quite often Pauline, but I don´t see you as tolerant when others express theirs. I find your approach quite aggressive at times to be honest.

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When a theory has no basis in fact, when it can not be supported by evidence than it is not a valid theory. If people want to believe in a theory that is full of holes and more fantasy that fact, that is fine but I am free to point out the flaws in such theories.

Of course, I appreciate that and I am not telling you to do the opposite. It is good and positive to point out at flaws to reach the goal, is a team work and every single person has an imput I believe, every one can bring something to the table,  but doing it in a constructive manner would be more appreciated  :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
Quote from: "Gema"
I agree, but  also I got a question. Would a stillborn have a birth certificate on the 1st place? We are talking about the 50´s.
Birth & Death Certificates were not issued for stillborn babies in the 1950's in the US. Around the year 2000, new legislation was introduced in some states and they started issuing certificates for the stillborn child, if parents requested them.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Serenitys_Dream

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Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
No, I simply showing how the twin/doubles theory has no basis in fact.
But you jump to the theories posted on the forum when the argument is about an open opinion regarding "Brandon", not a theory.

Quote
This was again about the theory itself being a fallacy and not about personal opinions. It has nothing to do with anything personal or opinions, it is the twin/doubles theory which is flawed and can't stand up to scrutiny.

My comment about Brandon was not pointing towards any double to start with.

The theories regarding doubles in TII can be flawed in your opinion but to the eye, those "michaels" look very different to each other and there is a possibility that doubles were used, as Joe also pointed to.

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Of course everyone is free to express themselves but so am I
And you do it quite often Pauline, but I don´t see you as tolerant when others express theirs. I find your approach quite aggressive at times to be honest.

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When a theory has no basis in fact, when it can not be supported by evidence than it is not a valid theory. If people want to believe in a theory that is full of holes and more fantasy that fact, that is fine but I am free to point out the flaws in such theories.

Of course, I appreciate that and I am not telling you to do the opposite. It is good and positive to point out at flaws to reach the goal, is a team work and every single person has an imput I believe, every one can bring something to the table,  but doing it in a constructive manner would be more appreciated  :lol:

Please show me where I have been disrespectful to you in my original response to YOU. I asked questions only and stated my opinion. My next posts where in reply to Souza, who had made a comment in regards to my posts. How have I not been constructive? I am who I am and I express myself as I do. If you feel my posts are not constructive or whatever put me on ignore and you won't have to read them.

Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "Grace"
OK, I never was interested in Oprah and I am not going to be, I'm afraid, but let me please sort  this out:

And doesn't that sound somewhat like Michael Joseph dying of drug overdose and Michael Joe coming back to life as the hidden half-brother

I had the same thought, but with the brother "Brandon". May be Brandon did not die on the 1st place.
And why would the Jackson family hide any twin, of any of their children, from birth?
Why would they lie about the death of Brandon?
What would that have accomplished?
When the children were being born, the family was poor and they didn't know that they would eventually be as famous as they became.
I am sorry but for me, this doesn't make any sense at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
Please show me where I have been disrespectful to you
I did not talk about respect, I talked about your aggressive approach lately, and the post under confirms it.

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How have I not been constructive? I am who I am and I express myself as I do.If you feel my posts are not constructive or whatever put me on ignore and you won't have to read them

I have nothing more to say on this respect Pauline  :|
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Serenitys_Dream

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Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
Please show me where I have been disrespectful to you
I did not talk about respect, I talked about your aggressive approach lately, and the post under confirms it.

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How have I not been constructive? I am who I am and I express myself as I do.If you feel my posts are not constructive or whatever put me on ignore and you won't have to read them

I have nothing more to say on this respect Pauline  :|
it is simply a fact that if you find my posts aggressive than have the ability to put me on ignore and not read them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MJonmind

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This is certainly another twist in the whole saga. So many details. Her parents Vernita and Vern, and Eliza's and Elvis' father Vernon. ( "You know what I mean Vern?" Jim Varney :lol: ) Two Patricia's named of sisters :shock:
Oprah related to the Presley's way back, possibly. It is an interesting mix of black and white to me, back last century in the south relationships between black and white would have been frowned upon. This Hattie Mae Pressley born in 1900 may have been mulatto born to white Nelson Alexander Pressley born 1872 and some poor black girl in a not so nice situation possibly (if you read the Roots book).

Whether Brandon truly died or has been somehow involved as a Michael double, I'm sure that details are slowly being revealed to us. We are being hand-fed here by Michael in this "adventure". I personally lean towards an illusion of a twin that he has projected to us, to keep us pulling out our hair and banging our heads. "Greatest show on earth." "Michael lives for controversy!" But I don't rule out the twin theory simply because there's something going on that we haven't nailed down yet. I want to keep both eyes open and not miss a thing. 8-)

Personal story-- my husband thought he was an only child until he was 42 and was contacted by his half-sister looking for her birth mother who had died the year before. Apparantly his mother had a one-night stand/possibly rape with someone from a dance club, and gave the baby away at birth, not telling anyone but her 2 brothers who all kept it secret even to her grave. Even in her dying times she could have told my husband but didn't, and we just can't understand why. Maybe shame, maybe fear that her son would hate her for it. Strange how people think...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MissG

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Quote from: "MJonmind"
Whether Brandon truly died or has been somehow involved as a Michael double, I'm sure that details are slowly being revealed to us

I feel the same
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But I don't rule out the twin theory simply because there's something going on that we haven't nailed down yet. I want to keep both eyes open and not miss a thing. 8-)

Same here. Is Michael Jackson we are talking about  :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline mjkate

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I find it interesting that no body has really spoken about the past of the Jackson`s but themselves. I haven`t seen relatives or friends from back in the day say anything much about how poor they were or how many kids they had. There might be the odd few but then they could have been put up to it. Also I and I know a few other people have doubts about who is actually a brother or sister or mother and father. This could be a little concoction from here and there by Motown for all we know. There is so much that has been kept a secret. Why would the birth records be sealed (has anyone done research on when a birth record would be allowed to be sealed) if there wasn`t a secret of some sort to protect. It would make sense in terms of why they don`t seem close or to have much communication with each other. Michael had a baby and Janet didn`t even meet him for months, Encino is about to be foreclosed (maybe) and Janet doesn`t fork over money for her parents to save it, Marlon doesn`t seem to have much to do with the family, LaToya went all nuts there for a while and went for years withoug seeing her parents and siblings. Things they say about their family seems rehearsed and scripted and some things are said verbatim over and over and most of the family stories are from a long time ago. I`m not saying I believe all or any of this...but I do know that things are not what they seem...I am not passing judgement either...If there are major secrets then imagine how hard it has been for this family all these years. I remember back to the tweet from Janet to Randy...something like she thought it was time the public knew the truth and she had his back and thinks it`s time to tell. I will be happy for them when it`s all out and they can get some peace from the craziness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MJonmind

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Well you know what they say, if you tell one lie, you have to tell a few more to cover for the first lie, and pretty soon others are involved in maintaining the lie. I look back even to my own extended families (besides the one I shared about the husband's mom) there was lots of things I heard about this and that including dark secrets etc. The Jacksons are a big family; they got involved with a big money-making record company and sometimes things are done for expediency sake. Joe was abusive and cheating and so there was fear involved. Then there's the media who like to stretch stories so they sell better. Then Michael has got his big dream hoax on top of all this. Everybody's got some secrets!

Looking back to SD post about BC for stillborn, that does seem strange that they didn't used to keep a record of it, since we are traditionally a Christian continent where life from conception is considered a child. My sister-in-law had twins stillborn and they make a casket and buried them on top of my mother's grave with another marker. I'm pretty sure they don't have BCs for them. Maybe it's only for those who request one, so abortions aren't requiring one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »