Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

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mykidsmum

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Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 12:01:46 AM
Hi guys, so far everyone would like to see the rest of what my cousin had to say about the photo and the day that MJ died.  Now keep in mind she is not an MJ fan (to my knowledge) and isn't following the case.  Keeping that in mind and knowing she doesn't know the hoax theory (again to my knowledge) here is the full correspondence.
Quote
Ok, so I looked at the pic for a while and did as much reading as I could find...but I didn't find anything about the doctor's story, other than that he was giving him 50 mg of propofol before bed. OK, so here goes...

1) Paramedics DO intubate and quite frequently. A face mask is never used in resuscitation as it is not a reliable method to get oxygen to the lungs. The throat may close or swell and the oxygen won't get to the lungs...an endotracheal tube goes all the way down to the bronchi and secures an airway that can't be obstructed.

2) In regards to the bulging vein...when i look carefully at the pic (which is a horrible image, very unclear) I see a clear plastic tube which is part of the nasal O2 cannula under his nose. The nasal cannula has the two nose prongs in his nostril which you can see, and the tube continues out from each side until it joins up and attaches to an O2 tank. You can clearly see the tube across his left cheek and I believe the tube that goes across the right runs up beside his right nostril and is lying across his forehead, something easily done when an urgent resuscitation is going on.

3) The hand on the chest is NOT involved in the performing of CPR, which doesn't mean they weren't performing CPR when he was removed from the house, but this particular photo does not show hands performing CPR. He may have been reaching for something, and the angle makes it look like his hands are on MJ's body, but they are in front of his throat and not anywhere near his chest.

So I'll tell you what I think happened, from experience and what little I know of the case...but I'll close to guarantee this is what went down...

MJ was given Propofol to go to sleep...maybe was given more in the middle of the night...also had a bunch of sedatives on board...way too many. The effect of the Propofol only lasts minutes, so it would not cause him to die many hours later. I'm thinking the doc was conned into giving it several times through the night, it probably got to toxic levels. And MJ probably took some pills the doc didn't know about on top of it. I'm betting he died in early hours of the morning and was found in the am when the doc or house staff woke up and checked on him. It takes only a few hours for rigor to set in. When the doc found him he immediately began CPR. As for any color he has in his face (which I don't see in pic) if he died face down then he would have lividity in his face. Lividity is where the blood settles once the heart is not pumping. CPR is often initiated even if the person has a faint pulse or is dead. I'm sure when they discovdered MJ in the morning they knew he was gone, but the doc knew how much trouble he was in and tried to do everything he could to save him. The rescue would have continued CPR as it was MJ...if it was a regular person and they were obvioulsly dead on EKG and were cool to the touch with rigor, they would not initiate CPR. Given MJ's celebrity status they of course did all they could, even though it was futile. Again, because of his status, once he arrived at the hospital the continued resuscitation protocols until they had gone above and beyond what anyone would do for another person, they pronounced him. The balloon pump was over the top. And the lidocaine and epinepherine noted in some online reports are basic protocol in resuscitation, they are used to try to jumpstart the heart. The lido in his system was NOT to numb injection sites as one report stated.
Either way, CPR on the bed is wacked out...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Iused2dream

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 01:24:44 AM
whew...tough to read but still appreciate your research.  Thank you...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Jennie

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 01:34:13 AM
Hmmm.... I knew I wouldn't like how the story ended!  :lol: But really though your cousin here is probably mainly basing her opinion on what was reported by the media. Your cousin was not provided with any facts by the hospital directly or by the 911 crew so it is normal she would come to such a conclusion.  IMO... Unless I missed something here :?:  :?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Shamone Jackson

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 02:04:28 AM
Why are we supposed to care what someone's opinion is that thinks MJ is dead?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline SEHF

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 05:24:35 AM
hehe..doesn't sound like much of an expert to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline tinker_bell

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 07:12:52 AM
Thank you for yor post, mykidsmum
It is tough to read, but at this poit i'd like to hear ANY truth, as long as it's the truth, however bitter it may be. Your cousin's opinion sounds like a possibility (unfortunately), that could also explain why no doctor wanted to sign the DC, why there were no sirens and no rush to hospital and all the confusion in time-lines in the doc's story. However, i can't understand why everyone would cover Murray (ER, LAPD, MJ staff) because if that is the case that he injected whatever in the course of the night and LEFT MJ unmonitored, it wold still be criminal negligence and unintentional manslaughter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »


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Offline lisap27

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 08:26:54 AM
my thought on this is if he is dead / has died everyone was putting the responsability on someone else to pronounce it if he'd been dead so long.. i don't know how they would have put drips in etc if rigomortice had set in (everything hardens).. also fluids would have been leaking everwhere.. i've had experience with this.. which i suppose they could have been cos we didn't see under the sheets only the supposed bed picture which didn't have any stains on!! so theres the answer to that one..

AND i have never heard in the memory of man a DR, PARAMEDIC, NURSES ETC working constantly on an obvious dead person!! it would be a waste of rescources and time when it could be spent on saving someone else!! the brain starts to die immediatly so can you imagine it being starved of oxygen for over an hr or however long.. what state that person would be in if they revived them.. NOT PRETTY

thats my take on it anyway..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nakiska

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 08:46:37 AM
Quote from: "lisap27"
my thought on this is if he is dead / has died everyone was putting the responsability on someone else to pronounce it if he'd been dead so long.. i don't know how they would have put drips in etc if rigomortice had set in (everything hardens).. also fluids would have been leaking everwhere.. i've had experience with this.. which i suppose they could have been cos we didn't see under the sheets only the supposed bed picture which didn't have any stains on!! so theres the answer to that one..

AND i have never heard in the memory of man a DR, PARAMEDIC, NURSES ETC working constantly on an obvious dead person!! it would be a waste of rescources and time when it could be spent on saving someone else!! the brain starts to die immediatly so can you imagine it being starved of oxygen for over an hr or however long.. what state that person would be in if they revived them.. NOT PRETTY

thats my take on it anyway..
I agree with you. It just doesnt make sense to do all this on a person that is dead for hours. lol
I like the part where she said that performing cpr on the bed was crazy! lol
And this coming from a cardiologist.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline larab

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 08:51:58 AM
it does make sense. Michael is the world's biggest celebrity. I'm sure everyone would try the best they could to save him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline lisap27

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 09:30:28 AM
Quote from: "larab"
it does make sense. Michael is the world's biggest celebrity. I'm sure everyone would try the best they could to save him.

i don't agree sorry!! not if someone has been dead for more than a few minutes or however many it is but not hours.. they would be sevearly disabled or however you wanna word it.. can you imagine the KING OF POP ending up in a mess.. i don't think his family would of appreciated that!! and especially Michael he would have wanted to look after his children.. not the other way round.. so to speak..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

mykidsmum

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 12:51:04 PM
Quote from: "Shamone Jackson"
Why are we supposed to care what someone's opinion is that thinks MJ is dead?
because you can use her story as a baseline to KNOW what could have happend had he been found dead...You can use this because she has seen this many times (not with a celebrity) and you can use this story to see all the things that don't make sense....for instance, if MJ was cold to the touch, I don't think they would have bothered with an o2 cannula under his nose,  why would MJ want to use profonol when it only has an effect for minutes?  How could their be lidocaine or epinephrine in his system if he didn't have a heart beat?  (you would need the heart to pump it around so it could show up in a test, if you believe any of the tox reports) I said at the beginning of the piece that she was not familiar with the case but this is her personal take on what could have happened if he REALLY DID DIE based on her experience, what she has seen.  If he had rigor or was cool to the touch then how could some reports say he was warm at the hospital... you can also use this to see what people who experience these things think about how the situation happened and how he could have used someone like her to help to stage his death.  Also you can see how people who are not familiar with the hoax thearoy are being hoaxed  :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

mykidsmum

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: "SEHF"
hehe..doesn't sound like much of an expert to me.
she said in the piece she is not familiar with the case and actully did some research for me because I asked her and she said "BASED on what she could find this is what she thinks"  As for an expert...she is:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

mykidsmum

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 01:01:21 PM
Quote from: "tinker_bell"
Thank you for yor post, mykidsmum
It is tough to read, but at this poit i'd like to hear ANY truth, as long as it's the truth, however bitter it may be. Your cousin's opinion sounds like a possibility (unfortunately), that could also explain why no doctor wanted to sign the DC, why there were no sirens and no rush to hospital and all the confusion in time-lines in the doc's story. However, i can't understand why everyone would cover Murray (ER, LAPD, MJ staff) because if that is the case that he injected whatever in the course of the night and LEFT MJ unmonitored, it wold still be criminal negligence and unintentional manslaughter.
I can tell you what she said on why the death certificate wasn't signed..., I hope I don't get in trouble again...LOL.  I looked to see if I still had what she said about that but I think I deleted it but just from my memory she said signing can take up to 6 months to a year in these types of cases and the sining can be deferred until tox reports come back and cause of death have been decided and often if it still an open case it will be deferred as well but she said the certificate is still legal and this happens a lot.  To the best of my memory that is what she said.
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Offline tinker_bell

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 02:14:40 PM
Quote from: "mykidsmum"
I can tell you what she said on why the death certificate wasn't signed..., I hope I don't get in trouble again...LOL.  I looked to see if I still had what she said about that but I think I deleted it but just from my memory she said signing can take up to 6 months to a year in these types of cases and the sining can be deferred until tox reports come back and cause of death have been decided and often if it still an open case it will be deferred as well but she said the certificate is still legal and this happens a lot.  To the best of my memory that is what she said.

Thanks! I was actually reading about it just today:

http://www.deathreference.com/Da-Em/Dea ... icate.html

There it says the changes may be applied to the DC within 3 years after it's been issued... It also mentions that it's not a scarce chance that DC's are being faked!

There's also an interesting topic started by Christiana about how UCLA is famous for "Raising the dead" (see the link below). Perhaps you could also ask your cousin's opinion about that if we assume MJ was not DOA (as it indeed doesn't make sense someone would work for hours on a dead body!) Hopefully she won't get too mad for all this questions =) I think it'd be geat if more people with medical background comment on this case.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1689
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »


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Offline watthhel

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 05:54:52 PM
But did Elvis not sign his own DC? Dont bash me to mention it again.
But I saw it in a video.

Thanks for posting the report. I asked a Emergency nurse too, and she said the same.
Nevertheless:  all the strange things ........ could be, but Im sure it was not THE  MJ! The one and only King of Pop. I dont buy it. And:
It is not important where he is, I would be happy to know THAT he is still alive.  :?
Perhaps we're sitting here for 20 years and waiting for signs .....
But I'll never give up my hope and he's always on my mind. Every day, every hour...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline hesouttamylife

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 25, 2009, 06:21:56 PM
THANKS FOR THE REPORT.  MAKES SOME THINGS A BIT CLEARER.  I WONDERED WHY THE CONTINUED CPR.  NOW I KNOW.  THANKS FOR CLARIFYING IT.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don't stop this child, He's the father of man
Don't cross his way, He's part of the plan
I am that child, but so are you
You've just forgotten, Just lost the clue.”

MJ "Magical Child"
Still Rocking my World…
   and leaving me Speechless!

“True goodbyes are the ones never said

Offline reading_on

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 26, 2009, 09:36:48 AM
Has anyone really investigated the mortis and temperature situation? I hadn't seen it anywhere on the forum. This may be a bit gruesome, but if you are investigating and not just hoping you should know this. Here is the real schedule for rigors etc. The body goes through many changes dependent on the individual.


warm ..............                  not stiff...........    dead not more than three hours

warm ....................  stiff    .....................    dead 3 to 8 hours

cold..................        stiff ...........................  dead 8 to 36 hours

cold ...................    not stiff    ........................dead more than 36 hours
SOURCE: Stærkeby, M. "What Happens after Death?" In the University of Oslo Forensic Entomology [web site]. Available from http://folk.uio.no/mostarke/forens_ent/afterdeath.shtml.

This should be investigated further for accuracy
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Offline ILuvUMoreMJ

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 31, 2009, 07:46:46 AM
Thanks for posting your cousin's hypothesis, mykidsmum...very interesting.

Reading_on, I am surprised to learn from your post that the body can still be warm from 3-8 hours after death. :shock:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
I will always love you Michael!

Offline Alem (Thetruth)

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: December 31, 2009, 09:30:54 AM
He think MJ was dead when the doctor found him, in that case it dosent make any sence that the paramedic would try ti revive him for 45 minutes and then head for the hospital rather then the LA Coroner. And when in hospital they tried to revive for another hour and a half, I doubt this is what happened on a already dead person...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline karmaknowstruth

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: January 04, 2010, 03:49:18 PM
I'm still in the mindset of thinking "HOAX". The dramatics of the continued CPR on MJ is just that - overdone drama for all to see and probably wasn't MJ or even a real human body. Earlier I was reading a thread on this site about proof that Elvis is very much alive - DNA - proven.  There was a link about "Mystery Man" and while on you tube I stumbled across a video (could not find it again, sorry)  interview from a nurse who was at the hospital when Elvis was brought in.  She said she knew he was dead yet the doctors were still doing CPR and she thought it was nutty.  A light bulb went off in my head - drama, acting, for the cameras exactly like they did with MJ.  Only difference is all we have to go on is hear-say, words from the media.  No doctor's statement, no attending nurses, no photos, no nothing !
So, I'm still in the mindset of thinking "HOAX" and some pretty sloppy work at that.
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Offline karmaknowstruth

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: January 04, 2010, 03:54:33 PM
OH, Sorry, I neglected to ad that the story that proves Elvis is alive, DNA proof also says that the autopsy DNA's does not match Elvis so the dead person brought into the hosp wasn't him, just some deceased person that looked like him.  It was all fake, just like Michael's hoax.   MJ must have learned something while married to Lisa Presley.
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Offline mjj_fan

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: January 04, 2010, 04:41:24 PM
@mykids mom is she /he a physician or paramedical staff ?  i agree with her at some points but .... not 100% , still she took her /he time out so we must appreciate the efforts and KEEP AN OPEN MIND  dont we think so ???thanks mykids mom for posting it

 
  @shamone i read some where in your post your sister is a phyician , did you ever talk to her about ambulance picture???
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Offline Grenat

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Re: Expert Medical Oppinion Ambulance Pic Part 2

  • on: January 05, 2010, 01:05:52 PM
Quote
OH, Sorry, I neglected to ad that the story that proves Elvis is alive, DNA proof also says that the autopsy DNA's does not match Elvis so the dead person brought into the hosp wasn't him, just some deceased person that looked like him. It was all fake, just like Michael's hoax. MJ must have learned something while married to Lisa Presley.

Is that true ? Where did you find your information ? I began to search for a possible Elvis hoax some months ago but I didn't come across the fact that his DNA didn't match  :shock: But well...of course DNA testing didn't exist back then so Elvis simply used that as his advantage  :D
Could you give me the website/article where you find that the DNA doesn't match Elvis ? I'm really interested
I heard about the nurse tough , because she knew him well
But that doesn't explain why nobody talked about Mike to  in the hospital to the tabloids
In a hospital there are a lot of people that liked him , that surely liked fame and spotlight too , there were surely chatty and gossipy people too
Why nobody didn't say anything ? Why ?Why didn't anyone came and asked for a check ? When they were so much people willing to come forward report false allegation about child molestation ?
That's so puzzling
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

 

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