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MaryK

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 04:50:20 PM
@_Scream_: I am 39 years old. How old are you?

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You and I were never separate

It's just an illusion

Wrought by the magical lens of Perception



_Scream_

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 05:47:50 PM
Mary, I'm 44, not as much age difference as I thought. It's just that I read things like you posted on the internet from time to time and for some reason it's usually people who are in their 20's or younger who post similar things. So that gave me the impression that you might be younger than me. So I guess schools and teachers are different.

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There's a difference between the common jewish people and the Zionists.

The problem is .... the actual collective guilt that is happening. A lot of people, some out of pure ignorance, some out of an anti-Semitic agenda and ideology, blame all Jewish people for what a few do. Like they blame all Jews for what Isreal does (I don't agree with a lot that Isreal does, but it's a country first and I don't care that most of the people living there are Jews - since I also wouldn't blame all Germans because a few are doing things that I don't like or are criminals or all Catholics for what the church did hundreds of years ago, not even for what the church does wrong these days, or all black people in America because a few commit crimes, just like white people, and nobody would ever blame all white people because some commit murder or sell drugs). And those who actually have this ideology and are not just ignorant use words like Zionists as a code for "Jews". How can you blame an entire country for what their politicians do? Some in the country will agree with them and some won't, in a democracy 50 % of all voters might have voted for the complete opposite and are not responsible for the fact that the other side won. In the case of Israel, how can you hate on Jews that don't even live in that country and would never move there? More Jews live outside Israel, all over the world, than live in Israel. And yet you have AKHTONI claiming that there are no Jews, just Zionists, that Jews can't be trusted, that Jews committed the Holocaust and blamed it on Hitler, that Jews kill prophets (well, the Romans killed Jesus) - talk about collective guilt, even for things that Jews didn't do and that happened 2,000 years ago!
Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 05:50:25 PM by _Scream_
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Tink

Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 06:06:26 PM
As far as I know, the Nazis were a political power, that ran out of control under a power hungry MADMAN.

Germany had just come out of WW1, with an awfully heavy debt to pay, and Hitler offered a way "out" of it. Blaming all the Jews was a first step, in taking back control. Then, it was invading Poland - and setting up a bunch of Prison, then DEATH CAMPS there. I should know - my Great Aunt Alka survived Berkinau-Auschwitz; she wasn't Jewish, she was CATHOLIC! Anyone who didn't fall in line with the Nazi party line was dumped in all of the camps. Oh, riiiight - land!

Poland was earmarked for EXTERMINATION. My Great Aunts & Uncles for the most part, were murdered at their Palaces and castles - which the Nazis took over, and ran administrative tasks from...you can imagine how I feel about that.

Only one wasn't...and he had to watch 5,000 Polish soldiers stand for 4 days, with their hands over their heads on his property. Anyone who dropped their hands, was SHOT. Anyone who tried to give them water or food, WAS SHOT. They extorted him for money - until he ran out ahead of the Russians.

The reason why Poland was so easily overrun? Thank Russia for that, because of Katyn Forest Massacre: Where they decapitated Poland, by taking ALL the top leaders, the thinkers, men from the colleges. Anyone who could've rallied AGAINST the Nazis, received a bullet in the back of their head, execution style, the number being about 22,000. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login Stalin contributed greatly to Hitler decimating Poland.

I really don't understand how anyone can get this "zionist" theme out of this; it was about destroying lives; invasion, taking over the world by Hitler and his personal minions!

Oh, and let us not forget Hugo Boss designing the SS Uniforms - that's why they looked so snappy (and I'll never forgive that design house).

The numbers tattooed on my Great Aunt's arm, sending any clothes we didn't need to Poland every year, it was so precious to them. I've only been able to speak with two of my younger relatives, and they're pretty cool, similar to me. But what really sticks in my memory, is when an 80 year old woman contacted me, who was quite ill - and just wanted to hear from another relative, before she died. I spent as long as she wanted on the phone - then her son thanked me...another Berkinau-Auschwitz survivor.

So please - it was about Total Global Domination. Nobody gave a damn about the Jews, the Gypsies, nor the Poles. They were just hamburger fed into the machine called WAR.

Anyone remember what it was like, when the Allies allowed Germany to be divided, Poland given to Russia on a silver platter, along with so many other countries, screaming for their freedom? That was a DARK DAY for freedom.

Yes; many of the school books for Elementary schools ARE wrong - because children can't handle the dark stuff. When you hit college, usually you get more of the truth. I remember my History teacher in college on the first day telling us, "Toss all you learned out the door; for history is written by the victors. Now, you learn the truth."

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Black & Proud! I'm like the Oracle/Batgirl, who helps Batman in the comic books. I believe in "Comic Book justice."


_Scream_

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 06:31:05 PM
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I really don't understand how anyone can get this "zionist" theme out of this; it was about destroying lives; invasion, taking over the world by Hitler and his personal minions!

Exactly! People talk about Isreal and the Jews in general using the Holocaust for political benefits - but forget that the other side uses the Holocaust denying it for their own political agenda, blame all Jews for the Zionists (and they are just a handful of Jews) and use the Holocaust as a weapon against them ("the Jews killed each other and blamed it on Hitler") and use Holocaust denial as a weapon against all Jews today.

Reading the story about your Great Aunt - I'm really wondering, Michael has Jewish fans as well, maybe some post here or lurk here. How must they feel reading things like "I like Hitler and all Jews are Zionists, they kill prophets and Jews can't be trusted, they killed each other and blamed Hitler and that they were 'everywhere' after the 'alleged Holocaust'" - yeah, how dare they, right? How dare they be anywhere? That's not just denying the Holocaust that's also expressing anger about the fact that there are still Jews left and that they dare to live wherever they choose to live. That must be so hurtful for them considering that a lot of families had no survivors and some had maybe one, and exactly those survivors or their children who lost their entire family in the Holocaust have to read AKHTONI'S extremely hateful comments on here, seeing how most people just react to them with chatter about the Zionists and the so called Holocaust industry.
Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 06:33:00 PM by _Scream_
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Dontwalkaway

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 07:58:04 PM
Scream and others,

You said people were reacting.  I think people are reacting because it's still going on as we speak.  It never ended.  It's just not in Germany,Poland,Holland,France at the moment.  There are still wars,suffering,starvation,genocide going on in the Middle East and in other places.  The "top of they pyramid" is still trying to control the world.  We're all at the bottom and we're all the same.  "They Don't Care About Us"  We all have to realize this and unite.  Religions,nationalities,ethnic groups,politics etc. are dividing us.  We have to stop letting all of this divide us.  If we all unite then they have no one to control. 

Love
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"And when that flag blows
There'll be no more wars
And when all calls
I will answer all your prayers"

Chorus from the song "Cry",  Invincible Album

_Scream_

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 08:09:12 PM
Dontwalkaway, what I meant was actually that they don't react with disgust to AKHTONI'S post but instead attack me and just talk about Zionists and the Holocaust industry. Instead of thinking for one moment how a Jew reading AKHTONI'S post must feel. How anybody who suffered during Nazi Germany or the families of those who suffered must feel reading his/her post. Instead of expressing how sorry they are that they had to read this and that they had all this hate thrown at them .... it's all for L.O.V.E.? Really?

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing ....

And then I read people on this forum saying how the world has to change, how they have to change, how hate has to stop .... and yet most of the people in this thread don't even speak out against hate speech.
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Dontwalkaway

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 09:08:01 PM
Scream,

I don't react with disgust even though I don't always agree.  This is because that person was being honest and giving their real thoughts and feelings.  I also appreciate the fact that you are being honest.  This is sometimes a good thing because then we can talk about it and work on it.  That's what we have to do in order to unite.  The only way we can accomplish anything is if we unite.  For example, the government in the U.S. calls the people in Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever "terrorists".  They blame an attack on "terrorists".  The people in Afghanistan or wherever calls U.S. the "terrorists". 
This goes on and on and it never ends.  Our enemies are not people just like us in a foreign country.   There's so much propoganda,control,manipulation etc.  People don't realize the truth.  Most people are just trying to survive and don't know what's really going on.
We have to spread information.  Who is really controlling education, news, military,corporations,banks,food, resources, etc. etc.????  Who is really doing the manipulation and starting the wars ????   We don't have the total big picture but I think on this forum we are getting closer to it.  We're trying to get closer to the truth.  This is the way we can unite and then "Heal the World".  In a way it might be a good thing that you brought up this topic.  This sure is a "big" one.    :ghsdf:

 
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"And when that flag blows
There'll be no more wars
And when all calls
I will answer all your prayers"

Chorus from the song "Cry",  Invincible Album

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MJonmind

Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 10:20:39 PM
I don't think there can be any real debate or discussion, if one or both sides are reactionary and accusatory, and emotions rule over facts and information.  Hate is not the same as bringing forth facts and details. All people experience things from their perspective, and you cannot deny people what they feel or experience.  There were others backing Hitler, he was probably more a puppet of higher powers. He was not a lone madman but selected to take the blame and fall.  Scream, there are ALWAYS other perspectives, but if they are silenced by force and fear, naturally you will only hear one side and believe that's all there is to know about the subject.  No one here is denying the death and suffering on an unbelievable scale, the questions all have to do with the powers behind it all, and the powers behind those powers, the purposes for it happening on a larger scale.
Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 01:15:03 AM by MJonmind
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_Scream_

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 11:01:47 PM
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Hate is not the same as bringing forth facts and details.

Oh, so AKHTONI brings forth fact and details? If that's how you see his or her post then you don't see anti-Semitism and dangerous hate speech against Jews when it hits you in the face.

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All people experience things from their perspective, and you cannot deny people what they feel or experience.  There were others backing Hitler, he was probably more a puppet of higher powers. He was not a lone madman but selected to take the blame and fall.

I don't even know what to say to that. You clearly have no knowledge about Hitler and his roots from decades before he even became a member of the NSDAP (his time in Vienna for example). If you knew about that and his anti-Semitism long before he ever became the leader of that party, you would never say that he was just selected to take the blame and fall.

What do you mean, I can not deny people what they feel or experience? If they feel that they like Hitler, that's something I have to respect and I'm not allowed to question that? What if they also feel there needs to be a new NSDAP, what if they founded this new party because they "like Hitler" and want to finish what he started? It's ok for them to do that because I have to respect that they feel this way?

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No one here is denying the death and suffering on an unbelievable scale, the questions all have to do with the powers behind it all, and the powers behind those powers, the purposes for it happening on a larger scale.

The powers behind WWII and the Holocaust were Hitler and the Nazis. Denying that and looking for other powers who were actually behind it means downplaying what the Nazis did and taking the responsibility from them.

And no one here is denying the death and suffering?

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scream:
Quote
So you support the belief in a Jewish world conspiracy?

Yes I did and I doubt this holocaust

I can't believe how people defend AKHTONI and just think what he or she said will just go away if they deny often enough that he or she actually said that.

I was really hoping that I'm wrong about the people here, but I can see now that I am not, if people actually defend AKHTONI and at the same time say that they are not anti-Semitic just means I was right from the start when I posted about David Icke (I actually thought people only use him as a source because they don't know about his anti-Semitism, boy, was I wrong, they know and use him as a source anyway or because of that). I guess I've been lucky so far on the internet, I never was on any forum where people could post things like AKHTONI did here, if anybody only posted 10 % of what he or she said, the posts were deleted and the users were banned for hate speech and all forums I have ever been on had "no hate speech, no racism, no anti-Semitism" in their forum rules. The only places I ever saw posts like that one were forums like stormfront. I'm still shocked to see a Michael Jackson forum acting like this and I'm still in disbelief.

And not that this is important, the hate speech against Jews and pointing out how dangerous it is is what's important .... but since this all started in the Front thread, I was on the fence about Front but now I'm convinced that he is fake, I really don't believe for one second that Michael would choose a forum that supports ideologies like this one. Hate against (groups of) people goes against everything he ever stood for. I know that it's a bit early, Front might not have seen this yet, so maybe he will address it in the near future, that might put me back on the fence. If he doesn't, well, then I wasted a couple of months of following the 2 threads and reading through the old one from beginning to end.
Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 11:07:07 PM by _Scream_
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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 11:17:04 PM
I've been observing the discussion here and I find it fascinating...good call bec and Souza for re-opening it.  And although the 'surface' discussion going on is quite interesting....what fascinates me more is the discussion going on just below the surface.  This is a HUGE topic...a very deep rabbit hole.

No matter how you slice it, Hitler was ONE example of evil personified....and he didn't act alone.  I am fascinated by his intelligence and often wonder what he could have accomplished if he had used his gifts for good.  I can completely understand Mike having wanted to speak with him.  People freaked out when they read that...using it as yet another excuse to accuse Mike of something else (it's like they have a checklist).  The only way to beat evil is to study it, learn it and watch it in action...what better way to understand it than through the 'mind' of evil?

I haven't 'studied' the Holocaust enough to give an educated 'opinion' on it...nor do I have personal attachments to the events that occurred.  But I do know enough to know that no matter what took place....it left a scar in human history....much like the events of 9/11 left a scar (there are many other scars...but those two are fresh scars).  Whatever the 'logistics' of it were...innocent people did die and evil scored major points.  I don't see it as a class, race, sex, gender or any other 'dividing' issue...I see it as 'good'/innocent versus evil (remember, deep rabbit hole).  And as long as the 'good' remain divided amongst themselves....over this issue or ANY other issue....'they' will keep scoring points.

I do believe that we are approaching a crucial time in human history.  I don't know what is gonna take place, but I feel something building worldwide...like a volcano brewing just under the surface, that can, and will, soon erupt.  And based on 'their' past game plans, 'they' will strike first...again.  My hope is that the 'good' will be awake enough to finally block the shot.  My fear is that 'they' have got us all so 'divided' over just about everything under the sun...it's evident on the board and in everyday life....that we won't even see it coming.

What has kept me here for 3 years is my belief that Mike has a game plan of his own...a plan that will stop the world...one that WILL draw lines in the sand.  I'm trying to study it, learn it and watch it in action...so that I'll be ready on his cue. 

The 'good' is long overdue.

With L.O.V.E. always.
Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 11:34:54 PM by BeTheChange
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The beauty of Michael Jackson is found in his heart and soul...his enormous talent is a bonus and what a bonus it is.

~PLAY the moments...PAUSE the memories...STOP the pain...REWIND the happiness~

_Scream_

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 11:27:48 PM
Now I just looked at the links you posted, MJonmind. It's unbelievable, CODOH is the website of Holocaust denier Bradley R. Smith.

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In 1987, Bradley R. Smith, a former media director of the Institute for Historical Review, founded the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH). In the United States, CODOH has repeatedly tried to place newspaper advertisements questioning whether the Holocaust happened, especially in college campus newspapers. Some newspapers have accepted the advertisements, while others have rejected them. Bradley Smith has more recently sought other avenues to promote Holocaust denial – with little success. On September 8, 2009, The Harvard Crimson school paper ran a paid ad from Bradley R Smith. It was quickly criticized and an apology was issued from the editor, claiming it was a mistake.

And rense.com .... Jeff Rense is a Holocaust denier as well:

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Rense's radio program and website, Rense.com, cover subjects such as 9/11 conspiracy theories, UFO reporting, paranormal phenomena, Holocaust denial, Zionism, ....


Funny how you post links of Holocaust deniers to try and convince me that you don't deny the Holocaust and that you are not anti-Semitic. Or maybe just never bothered to research the source and just took the information without knowing who is behind it. If I read any kind of information I always research the source as well. But I'm quite sure you know who you are quoting, so it makes sense that you don't see the wrong in what AKHTONI said. And how right I was from the beginning. And you use Michael's name for this and claim that you do this for Michael and that you are here for Michael (see people on here claiming that when he said that history books lie he meant the Holocaust when he was actually talking about music and music history and how blacks have been discriminated against for decades and still are .... you are putting words in his mouth, things he never said to support your own agenda, that's a wrong that should be righted as well).
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bec

Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 11:33:18 PM
Scream you really need to calm down and start reading the words that people are writing and stop inserting your own and then getting outraged about your version. That's called twisting to suit an agenda and it has no place in respectful discussion on ANY subject.
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Are you entertained?

_Scream_

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 11:52:51 PM
I saw the words, bec, some of them were "I like Hitler", "the Jews killed each other and blamed Hitler", I also saw people defending AKHTONI and then one of them posted links to websites of Holocaust deniers, and it's not just 2, no, 3 website, I forgot to mention whale.to:

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They even promote the fake Protocols of the Elders of Zion like David Icke does as well and which are still used by Nazis to this day (you can see it on stormfront, they know they are fake but still say that the things said in them mirror reality). Not a website I would link to or quote for truth, they are propaganda.

No need to insert my own words if people post "I like Hitler" or links to the websites of anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers, it's obvious anyway what their agenda is. Michael just doesn't deserve this and doesn't deserve that HIS words get twisted and people insert their own to make it fit their agenda (like the history books lie comment). He had to face horrible things said about him, his own words twisted time and again, the allegations, and now his name is used and his words are twisted by people to make it seem like he supported their agenda. Is Holocaust denial and liking Hitler all for L.O.V.E. as well? And if I'm supposed to respect someone's feelings if the feeling is liking Hitler and hating the Jews, do people care at all about the feelings of Holocaust survivors and their families when they read those horrible things?
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MJonmind

Re: Anti-semitism
May 24, 2012, 11:56:42 PM
BTC,
Quote
What has kept me here for 3 years is because I believe Mike has a game plan of his own...a plan that will stop the world...one that WILL draw lines in the sand.
You know that motion that MJ made in his dance routine when he stood with legs spread apart and reaching down with his pointer finger to touch the ground? That always reminded me of Jesus writing in the sand.
 
Quote
John 8:

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?”6 They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.

   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stoneat her.”8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

   9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

   11 “No one, sir,” she said.

   “Then neither do I condemn you,”Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”NIV


Scream, you're always bringing in emotion. Was it people like you that called these writers 'holocaust deniers' or did it actually come from their own mouths, because I doubt that.  It's simply called 'name-calling' to silence opponents and vilify anyone who questions details of the official story. I have a question for you, do you believe it was Osama Bin Laden who was behind the bringing down of the Trade Towers on 911?  The events are somewhat related IMO. TS has most definitely spoken against the official story of 911.
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_Scream_

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Re: Anti-semitism
May 25, 2012, 12:27:29 AM
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Scream, you're always bringing in emotion. Was it people like you that called these writers 'holocaust deniers' or did it actually come from their own mouths, because I doubt that.  It's simply called 'name-calling' to silence opponents and vilify anyone who questions details of the official story.

Ok, now everything is a conspiracy, one of the websites, whale.to, even has the entire fake and anti-Semitic Protocols of the Elders of Zion on it, for Heaven's sake! If you look at the websites it becomes clear where they stand. If you of course agree with them, you won't see what they are actually saying. Those websites are well known among people interested in politics and it's widely known where they stand.

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I have a question for you, do you believe it was Osama Bin Laden who was behind the bringing down of the Trade Towers on 911?  The events are somewhat related IMO. TS has most definitely spoken against the official story of 911.

TS speaking against the official story tells me nothing. A lot of people do. Yes, I do believe Osama Bin Laden was behind it and the reason why the official story seems a bit strange and seems to have a lot of holes in it is that they never told us the whole story for national security reasons. If they told the entire story they'd also have reveal what they do to observe terrorists and other things that would compromise their future work.

But I really give up now, I really thought by explaining things and where I'm coming from with my personal history and by telling people who they are quoting and supporting I could make people aware of things and make them think. But from the way this discussion went I can just say that this ideology seems to be deep-rooted on this forum and Michael's words are twisted to make them fit. It was a big surprise for me to hear that he apparently said that history books lie about the Holocaust, at first I thought he actually said that and I missed that somehow (although that would have been a huge headline over here) until I realized people just took the part with history books lie and put the rest into his mouth. I really never expected to see anything like this on a forum that is dedicated to Michael, I find this extremely confusing, but I think I have to accept now that I can't make people understand by explaining. I can't make them re-think their points of view, it's just so sad because Michael deserves so much better ....
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