Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 05, 2010, 09:01:38 PM
This comment is taken from an article I read. It figures. The person is an anaesthetist.

If anyone wants to understand how propofol works, then here is the explanation and this is what probably happened the day MJ died.

Propofol is a drug that not only will stop your breathing if given in large amounts, it will also drop your blood pressure. Smaller amounts of propofol can be given to a patient (depending on the patient's weight) and that will only slow down one's breathing but not stop it. This is called 'conscious sedation', and that is what Conrad Murray tried to do.

Patients who are physically fit such as athletes, dancers,(such as MJ) and people who work out regularly, usually have low blood pressure ( in the low 90s for the top number) and for them it is normal. Also patients with lean body weight/ thin (such as MJ was) also have low blood pressure (in the low 90s). Also when a patient is dehydrated , their blood pressure tends to be low. According to those at the Staples Center that fateful wednesday, MJ had been rehearsing/dancing for 3 hours before the close of the night. He also skipped breakfastt the next morning, yet another reason he was probably dehydrated. Another interesting thing about propofol is that when used in combination with a benzodiazepine, the effect of propofol becomes more pronounced. In other words, a little bit goes a long way. Typically prior to giving propofol,a patient may be given 2 to 5mg of versed(a benzodiazepine ) by IV. MJ got 18mg of benzodiazepines per is attorney's and his own admission to police!

It is also important to note that MJ did not have any heart disease, per the autopsy. His blood pressure though was almost certainly low and given the fact that the effect of propofol is pronounced in the presence of benzodiazepines,means that MJ ,in addition to his breathing being cut off, his blood pressure also bottomed out. But because there wasn't any proper monitoring nor was the doctor properly trained in the use of propofol, MJ died. Dr. Conrad Murray did not know the nuances that one learns when you are familiar with using propofol on a daily basis, in the proper setting; that is why he now has a dead patient.


Now when it comes to resuscitating a patient, EMS worked on him for 42 minutes without much success. That is a bit unusual in a patient with a healthy,strong heart. Infact those are the patients we prefer to resuscutate, the success rate is so high. It is easier to get a patient back from the brink of death if the patient has a healthy heart unless if the patient has been down for a LONG,LONG time. Except in cases of hypothermia, it is near impossible to get a patient back if he has been down for a long time, it wouldn't matter how strong the heart is! That is why after working on MJ for an addditional hour at UCLA they still couldn't revive him.

My colleagues had long suspected that Dr. Murray either fell asleep or walked away from MJ at some point. It did not suprise us when it was later revealed that he had made phone calls for 47 minutes before notifying anyone,(the first to hear there was something wrong was Kai chase, the chef) to call 911. He probably walked away to another part of the house to make phone calls while MJ slept; he probably didn't want disturb him.

All the drugs found in MJ's system were administered by conrad murray. Although MJ had a history of addiction to narcotics, none of that was found in his system. It is physically near impossible for one to administer drugs to themselves through a properly placed iv. MJ had a properly placed iv, that is why his death has been ruled a homicide.

I strongly believe that if Conrad Murray's 'wanton medical negligence' didn't kill Mj here in the US, it would have happened in London. He didn't know what he was doing, he was in way over his head and he did not have proper monitoring. He is not an addiction specialist either. For the record, oxygen saturation monitor is not the only one that is required to monitor a patient in a setting such as this. You also need blood pressure and heart rate monitors, at the very minimum.
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Offline hope

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 05, 2010, 09:14:13 PM
Thank you for the article. The anesthesologist appears to know what he/she is talking about. Although it is hard (if Michael died) to hear what he went through, I'm glad to know more about it and to hear a professional coming out against Murray instead of Michael.  :(
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Offline MJJ1982

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 02:49:08 PM
:x Murray...
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somekindofsign

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 02:52:45 PM
Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...?  8-)
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Offline DancingTheDream

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 02:54:17 PM
When i go through the times when i think MJ really is dead, and i think about all of this...  it makes me so sad and also very angry.

It makes no sense... and Dr Murray makes no sense.
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 04:35:26 PM
Quote from: "somekindofsign"
Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...?  8-)

Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.

When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.
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somekindofsign

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 04:46:44 PM
Quote
Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol.

Sorry, I´m not in the USA. Where can I find a source that confirms the fact that he admitted that?
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Offline Jennie

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 04:57:05 PM
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
Quote from: "somekindofsign"
Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...?  8-)

Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.

When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.

I thought CNN had said last week that the autopsy results were fake.... or wait a minute, or was it that there is still no toxicolagy report. There's a thread on it somewhere in the forum. :?

I think at this point we really need to rely a little less or maybe not at all on what has been said through the media in any way,type or form. We are being brain washed to see things the way they want us to. We need to take a step back IMO and ask ourselves the questions we want answered and how we can answer them without relying entirely on the media. I realize this could be a difficult thing to do but I think it's worth a try.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 05:03:32 PM by Jennie »

Offline DancingTheDream

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 05:01:49 PM
Quote from: "Jennie"
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
Quote from: "somekindofsign"
Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...?  8-)

Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.

When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.

I thought CNN had said last week that the autopsy results were fake.... or wait a minute, or was it that there is still no toxicolagy report. There's a thread on it somewhere in the forum. :?


Autopsy reports ARE fake... ive been saying this since day one and no one listens to little old me.

Remember when they leaked the autopsy reports for Brittany Murphy?  The Coroner IMMEDIATELY issued a statement saying he was launching an investigation into how the info got leaked.

In MJs case.. the Coroner denied these (two) autopsy claims and never admitted that they were real or that he was launching an investigation into the leak.... he didnt because they were FALSE.
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Offline Jennie

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: "DancingTheDream"
Quote from: "Jennie"
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
Quote from: "somekindofsign"
Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...?  8-)

Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.

When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.

I thought CNN had said last week that the autopsy results were fake.... or wait a minute, or was it that there is still no toxicolagy report. There's a thread on it somewhere in the forum. :?


Autopsy reports ARE fake... ive been saying this since day one and no one listens to little old me.

Remember when they leaked the autopsy reports for Brittany Murphy?  The Coroner IMMEDIATELY issued a statement saying he was launching an investigation into how the info got leaked.

In MJs case.. the Coroner denied these (two) autopsy claims and never admitted that they were real or that he was launching an investigation into the leak.... he didnt because they were FALSE.

Thank your for clearing it up for me. :)  Right now we really have a big pile of things that have been said but I think we need to go through the pile and throw out once and for all what is false in that pile. Also maybe make 2 piles, 1 for true beyond the shadow of a doubt info and 1 for the shaddy stuff we cant prove to be false or true and is odd. It would help us lots to do so I am sure.
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 05:55:59 PM
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 06:20:09 PM
With the autopsy report....there have been a lot of 'facts' released in the media. The coroner has always said they will release the full report in due course, and that the facts come from them and nobody else. This does not somehow mean that there was no autopsy. They confirmed the completion of the autopsy in front of cameras, they just haven't released the full details yet.

Someone apparently contacted the coroner about this and the coroner said, 'The body was that of Michael Jackson. And by the way, we have released nothing officially, so everything out there in the blogosphere is conjecture or otherwise unsubstantiated.'

LAPD are in possession of all the facts on the autopsy. Some of this info can be gleaned in the affidavit. LAPD are holding back the autopsy until they complete investigations. So when people say that the autopsy reports are fake - yes, the info may be false reporting, but the autopsy itself is not fake.
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Offline Jennie

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 06, 2010, 11:39:42 PM
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
With the autopsy report....there have been a lot of 'facts' released in the media. The coroner has always said they will release the full report in due course, and that the facts come from them and nobody else. This does not somehow mean that there was no autopsy. They confirmed the completion of the autopsy in front of cameras, they just haven't released the full details yet.

Someone apparently contacted the coroner about this and the coroner said, 'The body was that of Michael Jackson. And by the way, we have released nothing officially, so everything out there in the blogosphere is conjecture or otherwise unsubstantiated.'

LAPD are in possession of all the facts on the autopsy. Some of this info can be gleaned in the affidavit. LAPD are holding back the autopsy until they complete investigations. So when people say that the autopsy reports are fake - yes, the info may be false reporting, but the autopsy itself is not fake.

So bottom line, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe Michael is dead. Correct?
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somekindofsign

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 07, 2010, 08:48:09 AM
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
Here is the affidavit. It's on the 3rd page.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... kson1.html

These 2 articles give good summaries of the affidavit.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/ ... 3914.shtml

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -show.html

Thank you very much for the sources.
I´ll take my time to read them... this is all going so fast now!
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 08, 2010, 01:11:45 PM
Quote from: "Jennie"
So bottom line, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe Michael is dead. Correct?

I don't think it's rational to dismiss everything as fake (hoax), but there are lots of things that can be false. I believe that the affidavit was not faked and i have no reason to believe that the autopsy announcement made to media by the coroner's office was fake. These 2 things alone for me are huge hurdles for any hoax theory. Ofcourse, there have been many strange things since MJ's death and many unanswered questions, but i think the confusion, contradiction and mystery has been largely fuelled by a complete lack of information from the LAPD and Coroner. They chose to keep some details private, and many witnesses will obviously not want to speak in public before a trial commences. There are so many medical staff who will give evidence who have not yet spoken. I think people have to be sensible about this.
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somekindofsign

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Re: Anesthesiologist - How Propofol probably killed MJ

  • on: February 08, 2010, 11:11:09 PM
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
...i have no reason to believe that the autopsy announcement made to media by the coroner's office was fake.

Which one of them, and we have a new one... that´s the point.
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Offline simplyme

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Quote from: "somekindofsign"
Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...?  8-)

Yes propofol kills.  Any anesthetic can kill.  That's one of the reasons surgery is risky.  Some vets don't even want to use it unless absolutely necessary - like for cleaning teeth really well.  And people die from it.  You didn't hear about it before.  Michael made it famous.  People in the medical profession that have easy access to it take - they shoot up and die.  The person who wrote the article above is correct, accurate and anyone that understands blood pressure, meds and all the conditions mentioned such as dehydration will tell you the same thing.  Not only did Dr. Murray not have an ounce of respect for Michael he seems not to regard life.  He's not thinking clearly.  Even if Michael twisted his arm to give him the propofol, Dr. Murray should have at the very least had equipment.  The fact that Dr. Murray doesn't have sense enough to wear a condom tells me he's not thinking clearly.  I mean..how many children to you have to sire before you figure out you can't swing it?  I'll give him this - maybe the condoms were faulty - but all of them?
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Offline simplyme

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Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
Quote from: "Jennie"
So bottom line, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe Michael is dead. Correct?

I don't think it's rational to dismiss everything as fake (hoax), but there are lots of things that can be false. I believe that the affidavit was not faked and i have no reason to believe that the autopsy announcement made to media by the coroner's office was fake. These 2 things alone for me are huge hurdles for any hoax theory. Ofcourse, there have been many strange things since MJ's death and many unanswered questions, but i think the confusion, contradiction and mystery has been largely fuelled by a complete lack of information from the LAPD and Coroner. They chose to keep some details private, and many witnesses will obviously not want to speak in public before a trial commences. There are so many medical staff who will give evidence who have not yet spoken. I think people have to be sensible about this.

:))
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somekindofsign

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Quote from: "simplyme"
Quote from: "somekindofsign"
Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...?  8-)

Yes propofol kills.  Any anesthetic can kill.  That's one of the reasons surgery is risky.  Some vets don't even want to use it unless absolutely necessary - like for cleaning teeth really well.  And people die from it.  You didn't hear about it before.  Michael made it famous.  People in the medical profession that have easy access to it take - they shoot up and die.

Yes, that´s pretty obvious. I was just implying that this only proves preciselly JUST that propofol kills, not that Mike "died" from that, nor even that he took that.
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Quote from: "somekindofsign"
Yes, that´s pretty obvious. I was just implying that this only proves preciselly JUST that propofol kills, not that Mike "died" from that, nor even that he took that.

So what would you class as valid proof that MJ took propofol and died from it? I just wanted to know what concrete evidence is there that every official document that has been released  and confirmed by the coroner's office has been purposely falsified.

What sort of evidence (that has not already been released) will convince you that this is what happened. I mean, you are questioning the validity and testimony of a large and diverse group of professional people  who currently work in their said professions, without identifying what exactly is untrue and backing that up with solid proof. I'm not saying don't have an enquiring mind, just that you can't say something is false without proof that something is wrong with it.
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somekindofsign

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No, no QuirkyDiana, sorry, here we´re having crossed conversations. Here I´m trying to say to simplyme that, what I meant up there is that, it just proved propofol kills, and that it´s well known by everyone that anesthetic can kill.

After I said that, you posted the cbs source, which I think is something more "serious", but still proves nothing, is not that the main stream is gospell, less cbs-big-eye as I see it.

It´s not that I don´t believe MJ is dead (nor alive) till I see it with my own eyes, but for me to believe so, things must add up rather more than they do by now. And there are facts that could make me believe he is dead, such as Murray in jail for instance.
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Pardon me, i hadn't realised that you made the initial comment before the official autopsy/toxicology reports were out. However, now that they are out, would you say that the evidence in there is valid/invalid? If it is invalid, how so?

Murray could still win the case if his lawyers do not present the incriminating evidence properly, or if there is not enough evidence to convict him of said charge. Or if the police contaminated evidence. Does not mean he did not do it, particularly as he admitted to being there and administering. In fact, i am so interested in what is going to be his defence now that he pleaded not guilty. There is so much evidence against him involving negligence that I don't see how he can form a defence, but he obviously thinks he can. An eye-opener.
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the arabian nights

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wasnt mike introduced to the drug before, he would as i understand it look for doctors to provide the drug

klein said it was his chosen drug or something like it -
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the arabian nights

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304977,00.html

Michael Jackson Admits Drug Use in Testimony
Thursday, October 25, 2007  
By Roger Friedman

Print ShareThis
 AP


Michael Jackson
Michael Jackson Admits Drug Use in Testimony | Before the Academy Knows You Want an Oscar | Queen Latifah Swings and Sings | Pellicano Lawyer: Dismiss Case, Blame FBI

Michael Jackson Admits Drug Use in Testimony

How bad is, or was, Michael Jackson's addiction to prescription medication?

Well, in a deposition Jackson gave last summer, the beleaguered pop star 'fessed up for once about where his head's been at when he signs documents.

The testimony Jackson gave on July 25, 2007, had to do with agreements he signed with former manager Dieter Wiesner.

As usual, Jackson claimed to have forgotten putting his signature on the dotted line.

In the deposition, taken in London, an attorney for Wiesner asks Jackson the key question.

This is what it looks like in the actual transcript, obtained exclusively by this column:

Q Were you impaired by the taking of prescription medications or something else at the time you signed these two documents?
A I could have been.
Q Is that best of recollection, that you signed these while impaired, not knowing what they meant?
A I could maybe say so, but I'm not — I don't remember them.

It's not like Jackson misunderstood the questioning, either. In the same line of examination, the attorney for Wiesner managed to get this in as well:

Q How long in 2003 were you impaired because of the taking of prescription medication?
A I don't know.
Q Was it most of 2003?
A I'm not sure.
Q Did Dr. Farshchian prescribe that medication for you?
A No, it wasn't Farshchian. I think it was a local.

And then there's also this exchange:

Q As of March 31, 2003, were you still impaired because of the taking of prescription medication?
A I could have been.
Q During the period of time you were impaired by the taking of prescription medication, was this an impairment that lasted like all your waking hours, or did it come and go?
A It comes and goes, not all of the waking hours, of course not. Yes.
Q Now, during the period of time you were taking this medication when you weren't impaired, did you ever tell one of your advisors that you were [concerned] about your impairment and they better watch what you were signing during this period of time?
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the arabian nights

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http://current.com/items/90290431_micha ... him-in.htm

Jackson was linked to Demerol as far back as 1993, when concert promoters sued him, claiming an addiction to the painkiller caused him to cancel his "Dangerous" tour.

A former financial adviser once claimed the singer went through detox for Demerol in South Korea in 1999, and the drug was among items seized from Jackson
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

 

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