Selective Belief... or my big rant

[mykidsmum]

I'm at the end of my rope.  This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness.  In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments.  I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ.  I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.

I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).

I can't deal with this selective belief anymore.  This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years.  We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double."  even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof)  The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not?  but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart.  It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson

I'll give it to you straight up.  MJ, our hero...he hated his face.  He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit.  Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup.  But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it.  I on the other hand like MJ the way he was.  A screwed up, loving, genius.  All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.

[mjfansince4]

i appreciate all that you've done. you've really contributed in a huge and helpful way and i'm sorry some of the posts on here are upsetting you. i just try to steer clear of posts i don't agree with, since people will think what they want and they are entitled to having their own opinions. i don't know about the whole double theory. all i know for sure is that michael loved his fans, and with that knowledge my personal belief is that he would not use a double for events, awards shows and concerts where he would be interacting with fans. it's just my belief that he has the same amount of respect for us as we do for him. as for sending a double out as a distraction, i understand that. the twin theory, like you, i do not support. but, like i said before, everyone is entitled to their personal opinion and i respect everyone's views.

with that being said, i really hope you don't leave this forum. i do thank you for going out of your way to provide us information, whether it was ignored or accepted. i really do appreciate it.

much love

[Tina K.]

I'm at the end of my rope.  This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness.  In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments.  I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ.  I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.

I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).

I can't deal with this selective belief anymore.  This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years.  We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double."  even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof)  The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not?  but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart.  It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson

I'll give it to you straight up.  MJ, our hero...he hated his face.  He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit.  Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup.  But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it.  I on the other hand like MJ the way he was.  A screwed up, loving, genius.  All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.

100% true.Please DONT leave

[2good2btrue]

mykidsmum, don't leave.  I support you 100% as well.  There's alot of theories thrown out there that I don't agree with either, but I just turn away.  MJ was a screwed up kid, that never grew up, and that's why we love him.  So I understand where you are coming from my friend.  I also was abused as a child, by my male teacher, and was belted up by my strict Italian father.  On top of that, my mum died of Lupus when I was 14, and she only was 45.  I too am screwed up....but have become very artistict to escape my pain.  There were and still are many times that I would do anything to change the way I looked, but never had to money to do it.  
The most troubled people in the world are the smartest.  So no way could there be a double of MJ.  He is unique in every way, no matter how often he changed his appearance.....It's probably because he CAN !!!!   I hate everything about my body, but try hard to just live with the scars and memories of the abuse.  MJ lives and loves , as only MJ can.  I still find it very hard to show affection and I am 45 yo.  There is only one Michael Jackson who is the master of disguise.......Love you MJ, and love you mykidsmum....  Just stick to the hard facts, and thanks for all your hard work...

[hope]

Yeah, what they said  :lol:  I couldnt say it any better. Please dont leave, I enjoy reading your posts and views. I too ignore the silliness and try to stick to reality, although my armageddon brain is in overload most of the time lately.  

[GirlSaturday]

Thanks for sharing your honest and heartfelt feelings. There are probably other forum members who feel the same way and can relate. It must have taken a lot of thought for you open up and rant in that manner.

Riddle me this. You or anyone else is free to respond. Why is it easy to believe that someone hoaxed his death ? Clues and signs.  There are plenty to be found therefore hoax believers firmly believe in a hoax. Non-believers firmly believe that MJ is dead so they immediately and without question dismiss the hoax and believers. On the other hand, why is it difficult to believe that he would push the envelope so to speak with regards to career moves such as the use of doubles? Same logic is used by people who believe in doubles. They firmly recognize clues and signs. To them it isn't any more silly or far-fetched as their belief that MJ hoaxed his death.

I am somewhat confused by the conditions that many believers place on the hoax.  I stand by my earler comment on another thread. If some people looked deep inside and asked a question they may get a scary answer. Many fans are afraid to consider doubles because that would reveal two things: 1) They didn't really know MJ as well as they thought and 2)They have been harboring feelings for some unknown person who may have occassionally pretended to be MJ.  Many fans believe that MJ always acted or lived his life with them in mind. Not so therefore fans should be careful  not take his actions so personal. MJ didn't call me for advice when he considered changing guitarists. Why should I think that he would consult with or openly reveal that he chose to sometimes use doubles.

Some people don't place conditions within the hoax. It's a hoax therefore the possibilties are wide open and limitless. There is no narrow litmus test for me. I cannot say ..."Well I believe this and anything outside of that belief is bogus." If that were the case then I would have clearly overlooked many clues since I am looking merely through my own eyes. it is with the help of others that I have been able to see many now "acceptable" hoax clues through fresh eyes.

To a great degree these conditions remind me of those awful BAM dates. If MJ doesn't appear by X date and according to that particular forum member's criteria then BAM she gets frustrated, impatient and is outta here. As stated many times by many people this isn't about us. It's all about MJ. He didn't plan a hoax with me in mind so I cannot possibly believe that he planned activities leading up to the hoax with me in mind. As wonderful of a person that I believe that I am, I am NOT that important in MJs world for him design a hoax based on my wants or reaction.  I don't take his actions personal. It's his life therefore his choices and decisions.

mykidsmum..you have made some great contributions to the forum. Your insightful input will be missed.

[*Mo*]

Thank you GirlSaturday...  You said exactly what I was thinking, but my brains refused to connect with my fingers in order to type it out.

In my opinion the acceptance of doubles and some other issues discussed on these boards are hindered by feelings and emotions.  I know, it's easy for me to say this because I'm not a fan.  I'm glad I'm not a fan, as feelings and emotions can get in the way of a clinical investigation.  It's for that reason that in a real life investigation those who are emotionally involved in a case are taken off that case, as their emotional involvement can and will affect the investigation.

I have been working with fans for over a decade now and became very familiar with the way a lot of fans react when something they wholeheartedly believed in turns out to be not true.  A PR image is a creation, and in a lot of cases it has little to do with the artist's real personality.  A PR image is only created to generate sales and money.  It's an illusion.  The entire entertainment industry is one big ILLusion, it's all about $$$$$.  Reality hits hard, and a lot of fans prefer to dismiss reality to not get disillusioned, they prefer holding on to what they were told and to keep their dream alive.  That's human nature, it's protecting yourself from feeling hurt and deceived, and I totally understand that.

Please, keep this in mind when certain topics are discussed, and don't just reject things because you beLIEve that this is something someone would never do...  ANYTHING is possible.

[Good Lets Dance]

Mykidsmon, I agree with you too. There are alot of threads & subjects that I can't relate to so I just stay off of them and don't comment. What gets me is all the controversy over the 02 Press Announcement; Sorry but that IS MJ and NOT a "Double". He's acting a little Tipsy cause he took something or had a few drinks first-that's all. Before public appearences I read he would usually visit Dr. Klein for facial filler injections (restyline, collagen, etc.) so the look of his face could fluctuate from a hollow look to a fuller, smooth look depending on his latest facial treatment. Don't let the irrationality of some posts & threads get to you, just skip over those and stick to the ones you can relate to. :roll:

[mjfansince4]

Thank you GirlSaturday...  You said exactly what I was thinking, but my brains refused to connect with my fingers in order to type it out.

In my opinion the acceptance of doubles and some other issues discussed on these boards are hindered by feelings and emotions.  I know, it's easy for me to say this because I'm not a fan.  I'm glad I'm not a fan, as feelings and emotions can get in the way of a clinical investigation.  It's for that reason that in a real life investigation those who are emotionally involved in a case are taken off that case, as their emotional involvement can and will affect the investigation.

I have been working with fans for over a decade now and became very familiar with the way a lot of fans react when something they wholeheartedly believed in turns out to be not true.  A PR image is a creation, and in a lot of cases it has little to do with the artist's real personality.  A PR image is only created to generate sales and money.  It's an illusion.  The entire entertainment industry is one big ILLusion, it's all about $$$$$.  Reality hits hard, and a lot of fans prefer to dismiss reality to not get disillusioned, they prefer holding on to what they were told and to keep their dream alive.  That's human nature, it's protecting yourself from feeling hurt and deceived, and I totally understand that.

Please, keep this in mind when certain topics are discussed, and don't just reject things because you beLIEve that this is something someone would never do...  ANYTHING is possible.

mo, you know i got mad love for you and souza. i really do appreciate you guys. however, i find it really disheartening the way the double threads turn out. it's always a war of words and photo comparisons from when michael was younger to pictures of him recently. it's all subjective and all speculation. i just wish people would respect each others opinions more. if we didn't have different thoughts and opinions, this world wouldn't go anywhere and be rather boring. just because i'm a fan does not mean i have the wool pulled over my eyes. i am open to possibilities, but i have my beliefs that i have concluded from what came out of michael's mouth directly. the love for his fans is proof enough for me that he wouldn't use a double at least for a concert. the stage was a second home, he said so himself. i don't think he'd give up that experience to feel the love that the crowd emitted to someone else who could look like him. and yes, anything is possible...because michael jackson is doing it- not a double. i just hope that people can share their opinions without being made feel like they're ignorant and blind because they don't agree. please believe me, i say this with no disrespect. much love.

[Raven]

Mykidsmum,

I totally agree with you, so I will not repeat what you just wrote.

Like you, I have also considered leaving the forum as it hardly provides me with new insights or data. Most of the time it boils down to trying to debunk other people's ideas instead.

Some might believe they are doing a "clinical investigation", but from my point of view it's more like kindergarden. In particular the green man discussion, or the "identical doubles" discussion come across as extremely silly and immature and at the same time disrespectful towards Michael.

It's a fact Michael used doubles, but not identical doubles. Like some mentioned, he would use a double for stunts or as a general decoy for paparazzi, but not for performances or for instance official photoshoots. It's a matter of being able to relativate things. It is surgically or with the use of prosthetic make up simply not possible to create an identical double to the microscopic level. If it were, Michael would have had the perfect nose again without having been ridiculed by the tabloids and the rest of world.
The main reason most people recognize the person as Michael is because it IS Michael. This has nothing to do with feelings, as some in here are advocating.
 
I'm not saying this to hurt people's feelings, but I think it needs to be said. Some are delusional, not being able to recognise a person: everyone is Michael in disguise or an actor and Michael is a double. This is dissociation, not being able anymore to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, which are psychiatric symptoms of paranoid or schizophrenic nature ("seeing things"). It is no use trying to debunk such delusional perceptions, as these people really believe they see these things: to them, it's real.
It discredits the whole hoax discussion, which is probably also the main reason why the possibility of a hoax is hardly being discussed in the media.

[lilith]

I stood away for a few weeks because all this is really very emotional for me and I don't want to be caught up in this too much. I don't know anything about recent developments at all. I'm happy you all are still here and believing   .

Well, I agree with "mykidsmom", too. I don't believe in the doubles-theories. From tine to time in the past I saw Michael and I did not see the guy I love so much. He behaved strangely and I could not relate to him and feel for him like I used to. Sometimes I felt embarrassed about the way he appeared to be. I learned to live with that and of course I loved him nevertheless. One example was his appearance at the German "Wetten dass..? show in 1999. He did not do a performance he just set in the show to talk about the "Michael Jackson and friends" concerts - but he did not say one straight sentence. It was so embarrassing that I was not able to watch it through at once. I stopped the tape again and again. If someone had told me: "This is not Michael! This is a trainee-double!" I would have been relieved. But I did know it WAS Michael and I had to live with the fact, that he not always made the perfect appearance.

I don't know what was up with him on that specific day. And on other days, like the time he spent in Berlin when he received the Bambi-award. "It was not Michael who dangled his son over the balcony!" "Oh! I am happy to hear that. It must have been that trainee again."

Sometimes it was quite brave to understand that even I did not like what he did - he still was Michael.

Michael, of course, did use doubles. The ending of "Man in the Mirror" at the Dangerous concerts was a double and I did see exactly the moment when the double appeared. No! It was not Michael who made that stunt. Michael was sitting in one of those boxes. I even used to know its number.
And "Thriller" at the HIStory-tour. At the end it was not Michael - to me it was obvious. This double did not look like Michael the least bit.

One last question about the doubles-theory: where are those doubles now? It is hard enough to believe that Michael is hiding successfully. But those doubles must be hiding like him.  :idea:

[the arabian nights]

I'm at the end of my rope.  This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness.  In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments.  I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ.  I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.

I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).

I can't deal with this selective belief anymore.  This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years.  We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double."  even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof)  The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not?  but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart.  It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson

I'll give it to you straight up.  MJ, our hero...he hated his face.  He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit.  Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup.  But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it.  I on the other hand like MJ the way he was.  A screwed up, loving, genius.  All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.

all i can say is ditto - i love the way that he looks, flaws and all, you know my views on the doubles thing - the photos i have seen are mike

the way we have pulled him apart is shameful :?

if mike used standins/stunts for stage or the street, i could not care less he probably was not the first and will not be the last - probably normal in his industry. if it was all him every time to do promotions - good for him

as i have said before his best disguise is his own skin

i have said before and will get told off for this i suppose, but i think the doubles think does come up when there is a lull

and the lull is probably because he is gone

this is just my view i am not trying to convince anyone else.

[MJJ1982]

I



One last question about the doubles-theory: where are those doubles now? It is hard enough to believe that Michael is hiding successfully. But those doubles must be hiding like him.  :idea:

That's a very good question!
Do they need more surgery now to get rid of Michael's looks?

I agree with mykidsmum 100%

[the arabian nights]

well ernest valentino said he was not going to do michael any more - now he has gone

he is not a double as such he does not look like him - though i would say moves like him (my view)

Carlo - so sweet about mike - is still performing as a tribute artist
Navi - dont like him - (re 2005 trial) - he is still out there


but are these the real doubles that everyone wants to talk about, i doubt it - i think pp think mike had a clone or replica - i dont believe that for one minute nor that he had a twin either. they hope that the twin died and mike is safe - thats probably not true. if someone died on 25th then it was mike.

pp just have bad hair days, bad face days - ugly and  pretty days, pre surgery and post surgery, pre and post botox, pre and post beauty salon, pre stress - post stress days, pre - charge and post charge days, pre molestation days and post, pre show and post show days, pre jesus juice and post jesus juice days

some pp scrub up good
- thats life and my life as well.

sometimes you have to wonder if some on this site believe that mike existed at all.

[simalves]

I would like to know the truth so I do read the threads.

The double theory only bothers me because If there was a double -

1) then Michael is not so special after all because there is more than one and he isn't unique.

2) it would be hard to believe that the allegations weren't true cos it is difficult to vouch for someone who is used to duping others

3) there would be no death hoax - cos if the original Michael was sick and died - they would have buried him quietly and the double would have continued in his place. No need for all this drama